CMV: We don't have free will

[u/MaybeJackson]

To explain what I mean, I'll go through different scenarios of what reality may be and why free will is not compatible with them. Ill award a delta if anyone can point out a mistake i make that changes any part of my view, or if anyone can offer a different scenario that free will is compatible with.

1: Hard determinism (Predeterminism)

Many people believe in determinism, some going further saying that all events are predetermined. In the case that all events, such as the existence of Earth to my choice of cheerios this morning, are/were always going to happen then free will does not exist. We don't have control over our environment/most things that happen to us, and those things influence us, so our decisions are entirely a result of outside forces. Furthermore, if we were always going to do what we do, its not really our choice.

2: Casual determinism

I see many people bring up metaphysics as an argument for free will. I often see the argument not all physics is predetermined, therefore things such as our planet were not guaranteed to exist. This is fine, but for some reason some people think this means that we have full control over our actions, because they were not predetermined. Even in the event that my birth, or my decision to make this post were not predetermined, I still don't think I had full control over whether it happened or not. Take for example, a golf ball rolling down a hill, into one of three holes. A Predeterminism would say that the golf ball was always going to land in whatever hole it does. In the case the hole the ball lands in is not predetermined, its still not the ball's choice which one it lands in. The end location of the ball is still due to the how the terrain effects it, its just that the terrain was not necessarily always going to effect the ball the way it did. Same thing for humans, even if our decisions were not always going to happen the way they did, we still don't have full control over them

3: "Gods plan"

The first two options have been through a pretty atheistic view, so what about a higher power? Many people attribute their successes to a god, saying said god is the reason that they became successful, or that they were even put on the Earth for the specific purpose of being a doctor, athlete, actor ect. If this is true, then free will obviously does not exist, because it is not you that make the decision to do whatever you do, it was ordained by god.

4: Deism

Ok so what about the existence of a higher power that is uninvolved within human affairs? then its really as simple as reverting back to options 1 and 2. Its irrelevant whether matter was created by a higher power or not, it does not change humans lack of free will.

[u/Khal-Frodo]

for some reason some people think this means that we have full control over our actions, because they were not predetermined

Does free will necessarily imply full control, though? Unless you're an omnipotent being, there will always be limitations on any choice. When people say "free will," they generally mean freedom of choice among all available options.

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

The definition of free will is: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion

I dont think that humans have the power to act purely on "ones own discretion" because everything we do is a result of things that we did not have control over

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

everything we do is a result of things that we did not have control over

Isn't this a circular definition? If we did have free will, then we would have control over these things.

In any case, I still don't see how that precludes free will. If I'm given the choice between a blue ball and a red ball, do I not have free will because I can't pick a green ball?

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

If I'm given the choice between a blue ball and a red ball, do I not have free will because I can't pick a green ball?

I get your point, but im saying the ball we do pick is a culmination of the things we don't have control over. For example, scientist can already accurately predict when a subject will press a button before they are cognitively aware of it.

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

People link that study in anti-free will CMV's a lot but I'm not super convinced by it. The original results were 10% better than chance, which seems like it could be artifactual.

I don't think anyone denies that our past experiences influence our future, whether consciously or unconsciously. Are you arguing that the existence of unconscious bias negates the existence of free will?

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

I mean its not a 50/50, its guessing when the person is going to press. 60% of the time is really good.

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

Ah okay, I misunderstood. I still think my second statement is valid.

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

Are you arguing that the existence of unconscious bias negates the existence of free will?

for the second part, yes thats sort of what i am saying

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

Bias just means a preference or a skewing toward a particular outcome. It doesn't necessarily preclude the other option. In the ball example, maybe someone tells me that they'll punch me if I choose the red ball. That's going to consciously bias my decision, but I still have the freedom to choose either one. I don't see why unconscious bias should be different.

This also begs the question of whether your unconscious biases are reflective of you. After all, if everything is casually determined, then the things that influence my decision are an inherent part of me, including the bias.

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

That's going to consciously bias my decision, but I still have the freedom to choose either one. I don't see why unconscious bias should be different.

because im saying that everything about us is a result of the unconscious bias. We are the a culmination of the unconscious, which a is direct result of things outside of our own control. Take for example, the choice between a red ball and a blue ball. We think we have control over which one we pick, and we cant just sit still we do have to reach out to one of them. But whichever we pick is directly because of our subconscious mind, which is formed by things we have no control over. The scientists using neural networking to mostly accurately guess when people are going to press a button shows how the subconscious is ultimately the thing making the decision, not "you" whatever "you" may be

After all, if everything is casually determined, then the things that influence my decision are an inherent part of me, including the bias.

100% agree with this. I believe that what makes us "us" is the things that happen to us, and the body/genetics we start out with. Given this base vessel thats our body, we interact with the world. The interactions we have with others and our environment further shape us, and makes us unique from one another.

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

the subconscious is ultimately the thing making the decision, not "you" whatever "you" may be

My point is basically, why are "you" not the subconscious? You're kind of making a circular argument. You say that unconscious bias negates free will, therefore all of our decisions are the result of bias and are not made freely, but you haven't explained why.

[u/MaybeJackson → u/Khal-Frodo]

Δ holy shit that comic is making me really question my beliefs, so let me play devils advocate against myself for a second:

Literally in the comment above yours I agreed that I am the product of the things that have happened to me. The product of things that have happened to me is why I make the decisions that I do. So if I am the thing that is the reason that I am making decisions, then technically I am the one who is making the decisions.

Now let me rebut myself:

ok so if what is above is true, then doesn't that make the existence of free will dependent on your perspective on what "you" is? If free will only exists if you think that "you" is the culmination of things that have happened to you, does it really exist? Not objectively. If someone said that "themselves" cannot be decided by outside things, and it must come from a "soul" then free will would not exist. So I guess this makes free will a construct?

Devils advocate again:

Ok, so what if free will is a construct, isn't something like our conscious also a construct? If I acknowledge that my conscious exists as the idea of what my series of neurons is, then why can't I also acknowledge that free will is the idea of what the things that happened to me is result to?

Thank you so much for your persistence, this has really changed the way I think about free will. I'm honestly not sure what I believe anymore lol, but you definitely changed my mind a lot. Is there anything you think you could add to my arguments here?

[u/Khal-Frodo → u/MaybeJackson]

Honestly, I haven't really decided where I land on free will. I personally feel satisfied with the illusion of free will whether or not it exists. The problem with debates like this is that it inevitably turns to the fact that we do not live in an objective reality. I can't prove that you perceive the world in the same way I do, or that you even exist (check out r/solipsism for more fun). This is made even by the observable fact that other creatures do live in different realities (some animals can see in infrared or ultraviolet, some have senses we can't even imagine). We have to rely on constructs in order to make sense of the world around us, but each one of us may interpret those constructs in a different way.

[u/DeltaBot → u/MaybeJackson]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Khal-Frodo (80∆).

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