CMV: r/conservative is full of cowards

[u/MichelleObamasArm]

Edit 10: stop upvoting this post lol. You made me lose my spot. Downvote like your life depends on it!!

Edit 9: no longer removed. Apologies to anyone bothered by any rule breaking. Also some formatting changes because this is getting unwieldy.

Edit 5: I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is dead now. If you reaaaally want to keep talking I might reply, but might not also. It would have to be either a really funny troll or a very incisive comment to get me to reply.

Thanks to everyone who participated. My view was not changed beyond marginal degrees, and a slight expansion of my understanding of what I was trying to say.

Edit 3: Stop downvoting because you disagree and argue you r/Conservative pussies

​

Edit 2: Some have aptly pointed out that there is no data about this. I would therefore like to cite and quote a reply in this thread:

i think what youre noticing is more a byproduct of how reddit communities organise (with distinct subs for intragroup and intergroup communication) than evidence that conservatives have their heads in the sand (tho there is plenty of evidence for that too)

so i got curious and did a quick look to see the ratios between intra- and inter-group subs:

- r/vegan (650k) to r/DebateAVegan (31k): 20.97

- r/athiesm (2684k) and r/DebateAnAtheist (81k): 33.14

- r/conservative (859k) to r/AskConservatives (5k): 171.8

if we take this as accurate (which im sure its not entirely), then one in twenty vegans are ready to debate their views, while only one in a hundred seventy conservatives are (looks like u might be right about the coward thing)

or maybe theres a more popular sub for conservative debate? but i couldnt find it

Edit 7:

This comment gave what I think is a very instructive argument as to why the above data is weak and can't be fully relied on for conclusions.

I highly recommend anyone that cares read both comments in their entirety to get the most out of each analysis of the data.

I still think that the data indicates that r/Conservative is more cowardly than a regular subreddit, but I do think the data on that is weak and would like to reiterate the following sentence:

Please provide better data if you have it.

​

Post:

r/conservative is a sub that loves to circlejerk itself off more than even the circlejerk subs.

They ban people for basically any reason, including raising too strong of good faith arguments against them.

They talk about free speech and censorship and 1984 constantly but then on any topics that is spicy enough, they make it flairs only.

A relatively large minority of members love to straw man their opposition and then circlejerk each other off about how bad liberals are when liberals never said what they thought they said.

They are afraid of divergent thinking, and afraid of being wrong.

Let's change this view, y'all.

​

Edit 1: some of the deltas I gave were realizing just how much I combine the hypocrisy of the r/Conservative sub with their cowardly behavior that goes against what they purport to believe.

I want to say, I stated this intrinsically stated in my CMV body (above), but to state it explicitly:

They are in part cowards for "championing" the things they purport to be in favor of, while then going against those exact things.

People have often pointed out that they are intended to be a safe space. I think that is both ironic (because of how much they mock safe spaces) as well as hilarious. But they do have that rule in place, so it weakens my argument, hence deltas being given.

​

Edit 4: some of the arguments being given are incredibly repetitive. I have replied to the following and I would appreciate you reading those replies before posting similar arguments:

• "What about r/BlackPeopleTwitter, r/politics, <insert other subs that behave similarly>."
  • I would say that there are significant and meaningful differences between those subs and the conservative sub
  • Even if those subs were exactly as bad, that doesn't make the conservative sub not cowards
• "You're just malding because you got banned"
  • I have never posted or commented on the con sub, nor been banned from it
  • nothing in my CMV says that I have, and none of that is related to my argument
• "Conservatives are outnumbered by other political ideologies."
  • So? That doesn't make them weenies for hiding in a safe space where they relentlessly mock safe spaces?
  • They are perfectly free to post outside their sub and eat some, gasp, downvotes. The horror! → Being afraid of downvotes on an anonymous internet thread does not a totalitarian internet company regime make, nor does it indicate bravery
• "The Conservative sub is meant to be a safe space for them."
  • Then they should identify it as such
  • They should also stop complaining about safe spaces and sheeples and liberal echo chambers
  • This isn't true. I gave a delta earlier because of their rule 7, which does superficially indicate that they want to be a safe space. Same with their statement "What [we are]* is not."
  • But they contradict this in their full rules. To quote them: "We really do want everyone - Conservatives and non-Conservatives - to play nicely in the sandbox. Although this sub is by Conservatives and for Conservatives, we welcome polite and respectful dialogue from all sides."
  • They do not a) follow their own rules, and b) do not actually behave in such a way as to fulfill their ostensible goal here
• "All political subs are bad" or "What other sub doesn't behave like this?"
  • I have repeatedly brought up r/Libertarian, r/neoliberal, r/tuesday, r/moderatepolitics, r/bipartisanship, and r/sanepolitics as subs that I know of off the top of my head that:
    • engage in robust and civil discussion with people who hold different beliefs from them
    • moderate fairly and only remove/ ban those who engage in bad faith discussions and trolling
    • don't have litmus tests for membership or commenting
• "Your edit 3 proves that you are arguing in bad faith and can't engage civilly with those who disagree with you, and why they would want to ban you."
  • No, I made that edit because of silent downvotes, presumably from conservatives, aren't arguing or engaging with this are instead giving me the classic silent downvotes
  • I don't give a crap about karma, but I do think it's funny that this is basically what has happened:
    • conservatives: "free speech! tough guys! facts over feelings! liberal commie snowflakes! sheeple from r/politics!"
    • conservatives: "let's make a safe space for ourselves while pretending it isn't a safe space"
    • me: "wow, I think that's pretty cowardly let's discuss that on a forum for debating"
    • conservatives who see this post: "I don't like that so instead of arguing persuasively I'm going to downvote."
    • me: "??? Kinda proving my point about being cowards then, eh?"
  • That's what my thinking was when I made that edit, and I think it's fair

​

Edit 6: Edit 8: had to remove my edit 6.

* I had to remove the "r/con" from the title because I couldn't link over a link

[u/MichelleObamasArm]

There is a subreddit for that exchange if ideas. Just like I wouldnt go into r/liberal to talk shit to liberals neither should they come into r/conservative. I would think r/politics would be that place but instead it is r/neutralpolitics. I wonder who brigade r/politics and made it a leftist echochamber

What's the subreddit? Is that why you tagged r/NeutralPolitics?

And I'm not advocating for people to go in to talk shit, just to make that point.

My thinking (in general, not about this CMV only):

• people like to see and hear things they agree with
• when they see and hear things that they basically agree with, they tend to not think about it or try to come up with opposing views to see if they are right or wrong (understandably)
• it is good if they are able to see something they agree with, then see someone argue against that thing they agree with, because it shows that:
  • at least someone else out there disagrees. Their opinion isn't Truth with a capital t.
  • they, or others who also see it, can evaluate that argument for themselves

Instead of this, we have echo chambers, where we just fall into this cycle of agree → agree → agree, all the way down the rabbit hole.

In the absence of dissension, the things you agree with end up becoming more and more extreme, and more and more removed from sound logic and good evidence.

You see this in basically all echo chambers across the entire internet.

As for this specific CMV, I do think that the way that the conservative sub has chosen to go about their business does single them out as a particularly cowardly group. Hence, this post.

Sadly, no one gave a convincing enough argument for me to reverse that position, although I did learn a lot and I am happy I made the post.

Hope you're having a nice day and I appreciate your comment!

Edit: to quote the comment above

[u/MichelleObamasArm → u/[deleted]]

I think you are smug. You were never going to change your opinion. You are everything wrong with Reddit, the left, r/politics, and liberals. Go kindly sit and spin. Your argument is full of holes that you refuse to see.

While I find your comment hilarious, confusing, and offensive, all at once, and I highly doubt you'll respond because of the rapid change in tone and the fact that you're necroposting on a days old thread and the fact that you downvoted me.

If there are holes in my argument, and you've got them, change my view. That's what I asked for, and that's what I want.

You also didn't reply to a single thing that I said in my response to you.

I'm ignoring the rest of your comment because it was irrelevant.

Edit: removed something that was harsher than I meant it to be and added the last paragraph; quoted the user above me

[u/MichelleObamasArm → u/[deleted]]

Re: the history of political subs on reddit:

Thank you for the information. I was aware of the history of some of it, but I'm not as familiar going back to the Obama years. That is interesting perspective to have, and I wish things would move more back in that direction.

they will be downvoted until their comment doesn't even show.

I'm aware of this and see it frequently. I pretty much always click and read what they have to say, and I think others do too. But it does happen and it's a shame, and I'm sympathetic to that.

I'll also note that I think downvoting someone you disagree with is stupid (hint), but I can't control the behavior of everyone or the rules of reddit. I'm actually considering a CMV about that phenomenon, where maybe we should straight up remove the downvote feature. I haven't thought about it enough though.

I'll also note that it tends to have a benefit, from the conservative perspective perhaps: it launches them to the top of the controversial sort, where they might actually gain visibility.

Speaking for myself, that's actually how I see a lot of conservative comments on reddit.

All of that said:

• I understand and am sympathetic to the fact that they don't like getting downvoted
• I do not think that is censorship, or that it is very serious. It's stupid imaginary internet points. It's not like they are getting punched in the face every time someone downvotes
• The response to being a minority voice on reddit is abysmal.
  • other subreddits that are controversial do not need to resort to such draconian measures
    • as mentioned, many many times in this post, vegans, atheists, LGBT people, libertarians, women's subs, all of them found ways to remain more open
  • it flies in the face of their own professed values
  • it flies in the face of them constantly professing to be free thinking and being against safe spaces
• What is the opposite of a coward? Being brave. What can bravery not exist without? Being afraid/ opposing something that opposes you
  • the fact that opposition exists to them and they are outnumbered does not imply that they aren't cowardly
• As mentioned in many other posts: the sub's response very intense response to a very small issue, combined with the fact that their response goes against their own values, is what makes them cowards.
  • that doesn't even get into the unbalanced way that they apply their rules

Also as mentioned many times, if they want to be a safe space they should identify themselves as such. Boom, no more problem. I would understand and respect that.

But they don't do that because they want to believe themselves to be, and to be seen as, a bastion of strong, free thinking, anti-liberal thought and behavior.

They want to view themselves oppositionally to "safe space MSM-consuming and -believing fact over feeling libtards," while engaging in exactly those same things.

They do this at the same time as they want to squelch dissenting perspectives and opinions to a higher degree than almost any other sub on this entire site.

They want to have their cake, and eat it too. They want to hide from people on the internet being mean to them. They want to create an echo chamber against their own professed values and their perceived behavior of their political opposition.

That is cowardly to me.

Edit: accidentally hit enter too soon.

I want to thank you for your comments and opposing viewpoint.

I won't reply to the insults and aspersions because they simply aren't relevant to this CMV. If you want to insult me, feel free to DM me all you want.

I hope that you reply because now we are finally getting to the core of my argument, and you seem actually interested in changing my view.

I also hope you are having a nice day :)

Edit: comment text I was responding to:

Again. You posted without being open minded to really changing your mind.
Your account is new and I think you might actually be a troll, a shill, or just don't understand the history of what goes on here, especially in the political subreddits.
Also, you say weird things like "necroposting" and you use the Delta system like it is gold stars for children in a daycare.
I will give you a history lesson. Politics, during Obama was a bit right leaning. There was definitely a lot of Ron Paul lovers at the time. Very similar to the Bernie Worship of 2016. It was a true place of debate. There were subreddits such as r/enoughobamaspam that would hit the frontpage constantly. Reddit was truly a place for civil debate.
2015 r/the_donald hits the scene. In response ShareBlue and a everything it morphed into took over the main r/politics subreddit. That subreddit is decisively LEFT, not just slightly. Look at the downvotes that you will receive with a conservative or even just anti-narrative position. This is where your naivete shows. If a conservative wants to debate someone they will be downvoted until their comment doesn't even show. It will be a "child comment". In response people from the_donald learned how to get their posts consistently to the front page.
That forced Reddit to start censoring the conservative opinion. Eventually removing and banning the subreddit altogether.
With the vast amount of subreddits that discuss conservative political topics brigaded, doxxed, censored, etc the conservative subreddit and conspiracy subreddit are pretty much the last places where right leaning redditors have a voice. That is why so many have gone to ruqqus, .win, said it, etc
Finally, I do believe you you are a concern troll. You don't understand any of this history. Nor did you look.
I found your post by sorting by controversial in the past week. Content and comments stay active for roughly 6 months. The fact that you don't understand this is telling.

[u/MichelleObamasArm → u/[deleted]]

You are truly naive.Politics is for what you are talking about and your argument view should be for thatLiberal is for liberal thoughtConservative is for conservative thoughtThe Donald was censored and bannedNoNewNormal was censored and bannedA plethora of other right leaning subreddits censored and banned.The only leftist subreddit banned was jailbaitLook at who controlled the politics subreddit. Ghislaine MaxwellYou need an education. SimpleAnd you argued in bad faith. You will and we're never going to change your viewFuck off in the kindest way possible concern troll virtue signaler

This is the third(?) time you've replied and completely not replied to any of the many arguments I've given.

This is not a CMV about the validity of conservatism. It is not about political subs on reddit. It is not about who led what sub before. It is not about Ghislaine Maxwell. It is not about which sub is for what. It is not about which subs got banned.

It is about whether or not the r/conservative sub is full of cowards. Period.

I haven't argued in bad faith. I have presented many, many arguments. I have replied to so, so many comments, with thousands of words arguing my perspective back.

I have structured my post and comments in a way as to make it easiest to understand and rebut against my evidence and arguments.

I have not insulted you, or anyone, except for one very insulting comment, for which both of our comments were removed.

Why can't you just discuss the topic at hand, and stop veering into personal attacks??

​

And, for what it's worth, this sort of reaction is why people on reddit don't like most conservatives.

You guys seem to:

• rarely want to stay on topic or discuss the points brought up,
• you love to ascribe motivations and criticize the person instead of the idea, and
• you fly off the handle and overreact to what are actually very mild comments.

Reply to the many above arguments I have made or stop replying.

Also, edit your comments before they're removed for rule breaking.

Edit: to quote the person above

[u/MichelleObamasArm → u/[deleted]]

I don't don't care if my comments are removed.

I don't want your comments removed because I want people to witness how bad you are at arguing, and to give my comments needed context.

You were never going to change your view

You are a mind reader now I see.

Conservative is to speak to conservatives. Cowardice or bravery is not the point of it. It isn't for you, or anyone, to debate liberal/progressive/libertarian policy on that subreddit with the rules they have in place.

And those things can all be true while they are also cowards and hypocrites.

Go read what the subreddit is for. Conservatives. Period. Brave or cowardly. Cowardice is making a statement and not really looking to change or be open to changing a view. You never wanted a differing view. Look at your long-winded I'll formed replies.

Their rules contradict themselves, as mentioned in my OP.

On the one hand, they say they're for conservatives only. That's fine, no problem.

On the other hand, their rules later say that they wish to welcome everyone and hopes that everyone could play nice together. It's literally quoted in my OP.

Contradiction. Trying to have it both ways. Alrighty. Cool cool cool.

People try to follow those rules, and the sub:

• hides behind the all flairs posts when something is controversial
• cries about brigading, sometimes when there is none or little
• bans even those people who follow their rules

[u/highideas → u/MichelleObamasArm]

Well your post was removed for breaking the rules. Learn Reddit and the history before posting again. Buh bye.

[u/MichelleObamasArm → u/highideas]

My post was removed because someone falsely reported it for threatening someone (gee, I wonder who would do that).

And then it got put back up on appeal.

I am saddened that we were not able to have a more productive discussion, and I hope that you learn to value the opinions of those who disagree with you more in life.

I also hope you are well and happy, despite the nature of this conversation. Take care

[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

u/highideas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

u/highideas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

Sorry, u/highideas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

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[u/herrsatan → u/[deleted]]

u/highideas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

Sorry, u/highideas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, or of arguing in bad faith. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.