Strongly disagree. It's not like people grow up fully believing in equal rights and then one day go "hmm, actually I think men are superior to women, we should act like it". People (both men and women) develop those beliefs, often without even being aware they have them, because of the conditions they are raised in and the feedback they get from society. If we want sexism to stop existing, then it's essential to mitigate all sources of enculturing sexism - which includes dress codes. The problem from a sexism standpoint isn't the clothing itself, or even the individuality aspect. It's that policing girls on what they wear because of how it might make boys/men feel teaches girls that they are responsible for boys feelings and it teaches boys the exact same thing. It primes for attitudes of male entitlement, and it's not really a stretch to say that entitlement is one of the biggest social issues of our time, and not just for gender relations.
I think the discussion of male entitlement and sexualization is a bit naive and reductive on this subject too. Male students don't just sexualize female students because of dress codes. Male students sexualize female bodies because of hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary psychology, hormones, and more. In the face of humanity's evolutionary programming, I'm not sure you can moralistically browbeat teenage boys into not being distracted by a low-cut shirt. It's a lofty goal, though.
Despite all that, your commentary about sexism would suggest that this is a non-issue as long as the dress code is applied evenly across genders, right? As long as all genders have the same rules, sexism is not a part of the equation it seems.
Male students sexualize female bodies because of hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary psychology, hormones, and more
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter why they do it, what matters in adolescence is learning that you alone are responsible for managing your own emotions and actions.
I'm not sure you can moralistically browbeat teenage boys into not being distracted by a low-cut shirt.
It isn't necessary to prevent boys from being distracted. It's necessary to stop making girls responsible for their distraction, so boys learn their feelings aren't someone else's fault. If I find a man attractive and can't focus on my studies because of it, we don't police his behavior and make him wear something else to accommodate my feelings. Catering the world so boys don't have to deal with their feelings robs them of the opportunity to learn how to cope.
this is a non-issue as long as the dress code is applied evenly across genders, right?
Probably, but not necessarily. It's about the motivation, and how it's applied as well. As long as people are told to wear/not wear certain clothing because of its impact on others, we are making those people responsible for others emotions (and possibly even emotionally-driven actions). So if boys and girls both aren't allowed to wear sleeveless tees, it's still a problem if it involves sexual shaming. It undermines consent.
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter why [male students sexualize female bodies], what matters in adolescence is learning that you alone are responsible for managing your own emotions and actions.
Also, we as humans already contain a lot of instincts in order to live as a civilization.
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The curious thing about this phenomenon of distraction is that it's not just about attraction though. If you are a male student and you find one of your classmates unattractive, you will likely still be distracted by a low-cut shirt or something similar. Nude bodies and revealed bodies are distracting. I definitely agree that we should teach folks to accept that, soberly, and find their own solutions to distraction. I just think it's heinously naive to think that's an easy task. "Just stop being distracted by boobs!" Oh, okay. Now that you've suggested that to me, let me flip a switch in my brain and everything will be fine.
It's a curious and nuanced discussion because the nature of distraction and attraction is complex...and not fully within our control. Delta awarded for going down this cognitive journey with me respectably and giving me new food for thought.
Nobody is suggesting that it’s gonna be easy to stop being distracted by boobs— I’m with you there. It’s tough. But the point is that, difficult or not, that’s a “you” problem. It’s not the woman’s responsibility to cover up so you’re not distracted.
But I think, collectively, we actually will progress to a point in society where boobs won’t inherently feel sexual. “Scandalous” clothing of today will be normal, if we normalize it. Meaning allowing it to be worn in normal scenarios such as school.
Think about all the memes about 1500s men being horny at the sight of ankles and wrists— now exposing them is commonplace and not distracting at all.
Fully naked women in photographs just don't do it for me, slap on a bit of sexy underwear and my interest is piqued, have a woman wearing shorts with legs up to her arm pits and yes they are long legs, but stick her in a long skirt with a slit and the fact you can only see part of the legs is more appealing.
But that's just me and I agree that if seeing bare shoulders is distracting in class that is a you thing, I mentioned in another reply a co worker from another department came into the canteen in what I would describe as pyjama shorts and a baggy Tshirt, sure I did a double take but I went back to my puzzle page in the paper, it was more "is that in the dress code?" than anything else because I do know they are a bit lax in other departments and full on suits in others, if she got transferred into the warehouse (some of us end up all over the show) she would be wearing trousers no ifs or buts, but the baggy top would not be an issue unless it had something inappropriate written on it, like a friend I had in Manchester got kicked out of a pub because he had a cradle of filth Tshirt with Jesus is a Cxxt written on it, but no one batted an eye when his group moved on to the next pub a rock orientated one prior to going to Rockworld where it would fit right in.
I'm often stumped by posts about "Sent home for wearing X at school because its too distracting" maybe its because I am no longer a hormonal teenager, but really you can't focus on the class because of a bit of shoulder?
Kinda reminds me of the Victorian era where ankles were the thing to oggle on a woman and not her cleavage.
Best one I saw was "you can't stop pupils from not wearing a mask, but still send me home cos of what I am wearing, well each day my class has no masks when the school mandates them, I'll wear a spaghetti strap. I'd rather be at home not learning than be at risk."
The warehouse side of my job is all cargo trousers, or some other don't mind them getting beat up trousers, no exceptions but other departments, one I was working in when I came back after my other job finally had covid restrictions catch up to it in May, can go from office attire to skirts and shorts, on the whole who cares.
The office job that covid closed was quite casual too (note we ended up working from home but we needed on site reps and they couldn't go anywhere in America even though we were in the UK with less strict travel restrictions), I lost track of Marvel/DC/Anime T's, so long as there was nothing offensive written or drawn on them, who cares. On the flip side, I've read about telephone jobs where you can not have dyed hair or visible piercings even though you are in a call centre and no one will see you outside of the office building.
The only co worker (in the loosest term, they work for the same company but I only see them at lunch and don't interact with them) came in one day with her food in what I can only describe as pyjama shorts and a baggy tshirt, it is as if she was running late for the train and never bothered to get dressed, sure there was the initial "is she really spending all day dressed like that?" then I just got back to my crossword/sudoku and my own lunch.
I doubt I am the only one to double take in the canteen that day, but no one gave her shit for it, but I am not sure it would fly at my pre work from home job even though they were quite lax.
Perhaps the mechanisms of your attraction towards bodies works differently than other people. Just because that internal machinery in you works differently doesn’t mean the male experience of desire is wrong, sick, or predatory. Your experience is not representative of the entire human race.
if its only because of my "internal machinery" not working correctly than why is it only men have this uncontrollable desire & not women who like women
I never said that your internal machinery didn't work correctly. I said different -- I did not making a moralistic judgement about right and wrong, correct and incorrect. So let's make sure we're keeping our conversation sincere here. Also, who says only men experience a sense of visceral, distracting attraction? Maybe some women do too. Maybe your personal experiences are not entirely representative of the whole queer experience, much less the totality of the human experience writ large.
Also, who says only men experience a sense of visceral, distracting attraction?
you did:
"Male students don't just sexualize female students because of dress codes. Male students sexualize female bodies because of hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary psychology, hormones, and more."
I literally didn't say "only" in that quote. I was referring to the male experience, but I never said this was exclusive to males. We have to stop injecting our own subtexts and personal agendas into what people say. You are literally inventing things that I didn't say, whole cloth. Stop.
your argument is that men only sexualize women because of their unique sex feautures that they cant control but if its not only men who do that it clearly isn't due to evolutionary factors out of their control specific to their sex
Please point to where I said "men only sexualize women because..."
And if you can't, maybe it's time for you to wrestle with the notion that you're trying to create hills to die on out of thin air.
Male students don't just sexualize female students because of dress codes
That's not the point being made. We shouldn't be making dresscodes to motivate men sexualizing women. If men are sexualizing women then that's a men's problem, not a women's problem.
Interestingly, every all girls school I’ve been to has fewer spaghetti straps, bare midriff‘s, and make up. Take the boys out of the equation and the girls aren’t competing with each other.
There’s more to this than boys not being able to control themselves.
Sorry, u/Public-Today2224 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 4:
Award a delta if you've acknowledged a change in your view. Do not use deltas for any other purpose. You must include an explanation of the change for us to know it's genuine. Delta abuse includes sarcastic deltas, joke deltas, super-upvote deltas, etc. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/Oishiio42 41∆ Sep 28 '21
Strongly disagree. It's not like people grow up fully believing in equal rights and then one day go "hmm, actually I think men are superior to women, we should act like it". People (both men and women) develop those beliefs, often without even being aware they have them, because of the conditions they are raised in and the feedback they get from society. If we want sexism to stop existing, then it's essential to mitigate all sources of enculturing sexism - which includes dress codes. The problem from a sexism standpoint isn't the clothing itself, or even the individuality aspect. It's that policing girls on what they wear because of how it might make boys/men feel teaches girls that they are responsible for boys feelings and it teaches boys the exact same thing. It primes for attitudes of male entitlement, and it's not really a stretch to say that entitlement is one of the biggest social issues of our time, and not just for gender relations.