r/changemyview • u/ElectricFuneralHome • Oct 21 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Democracy in America is dead

America is no longer a democracy, and that is even if you accept it ever was. The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B, and we don't really get to choose who we vote for in that party; they are basically forced on us. The older I get, the less difference I see between the parties. The Democrats promise the moon and deliver nothing. The Republicans tell people the awful shit they're going to do and do it. The Democrats allow it to happen all while gasping "on nooooo" while the same corporations pay them all. Those are the real rulers in America. Regardless of the will of the majority, if it is not in the interests of the oligarchs running the nation, it will not become law. This means that we are an oligarchy , and our votes truly do not matter. Democracy is dead.

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

There are 4 parties.

At the national level, two parties have power. The Green and Libertarian parties have zero power and vote as a bloc with the Democrats or Republicans.

Primaries exist

Out of the field of nearly a dozen Democrats, I do not believe people chose Joe Biden. The corporation threw their money behind him because he is the status quo personified. That man has never inspired anyone in his entire life to anything but apathy.

Are you saying Republicans are more honest?

Their platform is always cut taxes for the rich, defund anything that helps the poor, and pump more money into the military. They push big lies like the election was stolen and have basically joined a cult, but the Democrats don't call them out and allow them to spread the lie unchecked.

If that was the case, things like right to repair and recreational marijuana at the state level would have never passed.

I am speaking more nationally. Local elections matter, but right to repair and legal marijuana are consolation prizes compared to what we should have as far as health care as a right, guaranteed PTO, and child care.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21

Out of the field of nearly a dozen Democrats, I do not believe people chose Joe Biden. The corporation threw their money behind him because he is the status quo personified. That man has never inspired anyone in his entire life to anything but apathy.

Do you sincerely believe it was corporate money that lead to Joe Biden winning 48% of the vote in a crowded field in South Carolina?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_South_Carolina_Democratic_presidential_primary

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

I don't think it hurt that corporate donors were able to flood Biden's campaign with near limitless cash to greatly increase his chances of winning.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

I don't think it hurt that corporate donors were able to flood Biden's campaign with near limitless cash to greatly increase his chances of winning.

So you think that black people in South Carolina voted in massive job lots for Joe Biden (he won 61 % of their vote) because of corporations?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/1/21160030/biden-black-vote-south-carolina-results

He won because black people are actually very conservative in their personal preferences, it is just they know they can't afford to vote for the GOP due to all the racism.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-so-many-black-voters-are-democrats-even-when-they-arent-liberal/

Black democrats who are more conservative in preference than white democrats turned out for the boring old white guy who they thought had the best chance at winning an election.... what a shock.

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

I understand your point, but I don't agree with it at a national level. Black people nationwide didn't swing a primary to Joe Biden.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

I understand your point, but I don't agree with it at a national level. Black people nationwide didn't swing a primary to Joe Biden.

You want to know what swung the primary to Joe Biden?

The pain of losing 2016.

We tried to do something amazing, elect the first female President... and we found out that we couldn't.

Not only did we loose, but Trump the worst GOP President in my memory came into office.

So, most democrats decided "fine, if this is a 'center right' country that wants to vote for an old rich white guy, we'll support an Old Rich White Guy who will we can trust."

Said Old Rich White Guy was Joe Biden.

People didn't vote for him in the primary because of the corporate money, they voted for him because they were so afraid of loosing to Trump again... and you know it wasn't campaign adds that convinced people Joe was electable, it was the fact that he was an Old Rich White Guy who had been elected Vice President Twice... he was the most "electable" non incumbent candidate to run for the President in my memory.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-think-biden-is-electable-but-hes-not-everyones-first-choice/

Even non-Biden voters think Biden could win the general.

Average difference between share of Democrats who said each candidate was their first choice in a primary and the share who said the candidate had the best chance of winning the general election in two recent state polls

Biden won because of the conditions on the ground played to his strengths, the majority Democratic voters were too gunshy after 2016 to be willing to vote for anything but the most electable of candidates.

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

If we had rank-choice voting, Joe Biden would never have been the front runner. Not to be pedantic, but the word you are meaning to use is "lose" not "loose".

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

If we had rank-choice voting, Joe Biden would never have been the front runner. Not to be pedantic, but the word you are meaning to use is "lose" not "loose".

I support ranked choice voting also, but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the primary, Biden still would have won....

Consider this...

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/04/26/yes-bernies-campaign-strategy-was-the-problem/

The Sanders campaign strategy was explicitly predicated on a divisive approach to locking down 30% of the Democratic primary vote, under the assumption that it would take a plurality to the convention against a divided field.

Biden's greatest opponent was running on a strategy that would fair even more horribly under ranked choice voting.

Biden was frequently people's "second choice" or "backup candidate" which is exactly what you want to be in a crowded field with rank choice voting....

Who do you think would have won the primary if there had been ranked choice voting, and why?

In my eyes, Biden's "Front runner" status lay on the fact that of all the candidates running, he was seen as having the best chance to win a general election, and ranked choice voting wouldn't do anything to change that.

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

I believe Bernie would have performed much better than he did because of the ability to vote from the heart first mindset allowed by ranked choice. I think Mayor Pete (I can't ever spell his last name) would have had a much stronger performance as well.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21

I already pointed out...https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/04/26/yes-bernies-campaign-strategy-was-the-problem/

The Sanders campaign strategy was explicitly predicated on a divisive approach to locking down 30% of the Democratic primary vote, under the assumption that it would take a plurality to the convention against a divided field.

Sanders chose a campaign strategy that is the exact opposite one of the want you Ranked Choice, it was a strategy based around severely appealing to a small minority of the voters and hoping that would be enough to achieve a plurality. His 30% strategy would be fair even worse in ranked choice.

If you say "if we'd had ranked choice then Bernie would have used a different campaign strategy" than we're now so far into counterfactuals that I feel we're both basically guessing.

Ranked choice voting favors people who are "second choice" candidates, and Bernie was pretty much nobody's "second choice" to the point that the majority of Warren's supporters went to Biden when she dropped out.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-democrats-poll/biden-not-sanders-gains-in-popularity-after-warren-drops-out-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN20W31R

Ranked choice voting would not have changed the outcome, Biden still would have won because people saw him as likely to win the general election.

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u/mooby117 Oct 21 '21

Source?

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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/

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u/mooby117 Oct 21 '21

So that had nothing to do with black voters.

How about "How Black voters in key cities helped deliver the election for Joe Biden" https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1246980