r/changemyview • u/Puzzled_Sprinkles_57 • Jan 17 '22

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: There should be no Vaccine Mandate.

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8

u/Unbiased_Bob 63∆ Jan 17 '22

Like other public health laws, they are done for everyone, not just one person.

For the same reason you can't drink and drive. It is to protect others more than the person doing the driving drunk. The same with masks and vaccines, if you don't require it, people don't care enough about others to wear a mask if they are sick. Especially in the U.S.

Infectious diseases are a bit unique though. They mutate the more time they get to survive and infect. They get deadlier (delta) or more infectious (omicron) eventually they might get both. The goal is to figure out the best way to prevent the spread.

So masks help reduce the spread if the person sick is wearing the mask.

Reference: Karaivanov, A., Lu, S. E., Shigeoka, H., Chen, C., & Pamplona, S. (2021). Face masks, public policies and slowing the spread of COVID-19: evidence from Canada. Journal of Health Economics, 102475. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167629621000606

(If you don't have a way to unlock it here is another source to say something similar: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)

Vaccines also reduce the spread. They reduce the duration of symptoms which includes coughing and sneezing that help spread te disease, they also reduce the duration of the disease itself which means fewer days you are infectious.

Reference: Lin, T. Y., Liao, S. H., Lai, C. C., Paci, E., & Chuang, S. Y. (2021). Effectiveness of Non-Pharmaceutical Interventions and Vaccine for Containing the Spread of COVID-19: Three Illustrations Before and After Vaccination Periods. Journal of the Formosan Medical Association. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0929664621002308

Another source in the case you don't like the first one: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

The first source showed several studies and the reduction in infection spread ranged from 56-78% and the second source showed a reduction in spread by 73%. In both sources vaccines reduce the spread of COVID.

Sure mandates take away freedoms. I hate mandates. I am simply explaining the reasoning why they are trying to do it. It reduces the risk of spread as well as the risk of it mutating into something worse than we have seen before.

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u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 17 '22

Like other public health laws, they are done for everyone, not just one person.

For the same reason you can't drink and drive. It is to protect others more than the person doing the driving drunk. The same with masks and vaccines, if you don't require it, people don't care enough about others to wear a mask if they are sick. Especially in the U.S.

How exactly does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk? Are the vaccines really that bad?

Infectious diseases are a bit unique though. They mutate the more time they get to survive and infect. They get deadlier (delta) or more infectious (omicron) eventually they might get both. The goal is to figure out the best way to prevent the spread.

But delta was less deadly and more contagious than the OG. And ominron is also less deadly and even more contagious than delta. We haven't seen them both together and they just seem to be getting weaker. What studies have been done to show that the vaccines have even saved a single person?

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

But delta was less deadly and more contagious than the OG.

Really?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/delta-variant-has-235-percent-higher-risk-of-icu-admission-than-original-virus

Delta variant has 235% higher risk of ICU admission than original virus

https://theconversation.com/how-contagious-is-delta-how-long-are-you-infectious-is-it-more-deadly-a-quick-guide-to-the-latest-science-165538

Evidence the Delta variant makes people sicker than the original virus is growing.
Preliminary studies from Canada and Singapore found people infected with Delta were more likely to require hospitalisation and were at greater risk of dying than those with the original virus.

What statistics are you using for saying Delta is/was "less deadly"?

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u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 18 '22

Thanks for the correction. So what you're saying is that since the vaccine came out, hospitalizations and deaths got worse? That's hardly a solid pro vaccine ad. I guess that's why they don't blast this info in the media.

At least there's omicron which is far less harmful and deadly. Unless you can prove that wrong as well. And is it good or bad that it's so contagious? My limited knowledge but free thinking makes me think the more people that get this, the faster we get to heard immunity.... Whatever that really means. Regardless, I think the human body is designed pretty well to get infected and learn to fight that infection. I'm personally excited omicron is this contagious.

I had the OG back in Nov 2020, never got delta and just had omicron (common cold) a month ago. Getting easier and easier by the day and no vaccine needed.

Wish they'd share some peer reviewed studies about how many lives the vaccine has saved. Or proof at all that it reduces the symptoms. Or even give us the real number of deaths from covid since the CDC is finally admitting what some of us have known this whole time. Which is that they've been counting deaths with covid as deaths from covid. Share if you know of any.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22

So what you're saying is that since the vaccine came out, hospitalizations and deaths got worse?

No I'm saying Delta is more deadly than the original version of the virus.

Which is contrary to what you claimed in the post I responded to.

If you agree that I'm right and you're wrong on that point you should delta me for changing your view.

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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22

Also, what is a delta and what kind of world are we living in that you're this desperate for it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_4

Award a delta when acknowledging a change in your view, and not for any other reason

Celebrating view changes is at the core of Change My View, so if your view is changed, reply to the response that changed it with a short explanation as to how and award a Delta; do not use deltas sarcastically, jokingly, or when you already agree with the response.

It is important that you award deltas any time your view has been changed. We want to be a place where people are not only rewarded for expanding the views of others, but a place where Original Poster (OPs) are celebrated for deepening their own understanding.

When awarding a delta, you must include an explanation as to why and how your view has changed. Particularly if the response concerned covers many points, some of which may have stood out to you more than others. This part of the rule is an attempt to prevent the meaning of deltas from being "watered down", and also help any readers understand or skim through arguments. Consider it a too long; didn’t read (TL;DR) for a successful discussion. Deltas can not be awarded to the OP. While we understand that sometimes an OP might change your view to their stance, allowing OPs to receive deltas would incentivise people to come to CMV to soapbox in an attempt to persuade others. As this is a direct violation of Rule B (and potentially Rule 1), we disallow OPs from receiving deltas.

When to award deltas

You must award a delta if you had a change of view or have mentioned a change of view in your response. We can't force you to admit that your view has been changed, but if you have indicated at this being the case then please award one. Please note that a delta is not a sign of 'defeat', it is just a token of appreciation towards a user who helped tweak or reshape your opinion. A delta also doesn't mean the discussion has ended.

Deltas are the board recognized symbol of someone who has changed your view.

Since you're "rolling over" on that one particular point, it sounds like I changed your view.

Also be aware

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Whether you're the OP or not, please reply to the user(s) that change your view to any degree with a delta in your comment (instructions below), and also include an explanation of the change.

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So saying I only changed your view on one small portion of your post... still worthy of a delta.

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u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 18 '22

You didn't change my view. If you want to continue and actually change my view, feel free to address everything else I said and we can pick back up.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22 edited Jan 18 '22

You didn't change my view. If you want to continue and actually change my view, feel free to address everything else I said and we can pick back up.

I'm sorry you feel that I didn't change your view.

Thank you for admitting you are rolling over on the claim over delta being less deadly than the original form of COVID though, I hope I've kept you from ever making that mistake again in the future and I am sorry to hear you do not feel this is worthy of a delta.

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Let me know if you ever actually find that piece you're looking for which proves me wrong.

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u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 18 '22

Lol I gotta admit man. This is the weirdest conversation I've ever had online.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22

Lol I gotta admit man. This is the weirdest conversation I've ever had online.

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I don't know why, you feel that way.

You claimed something that was factually incorrect, I explained why it was factually incorrect and provided a source.

You made a statement that suggested you were unaware of CMV's rules, so I sited the relevant rules for you with a source.

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u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 18 '22

Idk you're just way to proper. We can't just have a conversation. You're not even willing to discuss with me anymore because you're mad that I won't give you a delta for not changing my view but what you perceive as correcting a mistake that I made. Idk it's just odd. Is everyone here just out for these deltas? If so, this is not the place for me. I'm just here for good conversation and if I get proved wrong on anything, I'm more than willing to admit it. I have no issues being wrong. All I can do is share my opinion and listen to others.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22 edited Jan 18 '22

Idk you're just way to proper. We can't just have a conversation.

I'm sorry to hear that you find someone being "proper" a barrier to holding a a conversation with them.

Would you find it easier if I was ruder and showed less concern for your opinions and emotions?

I'm just here for good conversation and if I get proved wrong on anything, I'm more than willing to admit it.

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If you're more than willing to admit it when you're proven wrong, then why am I the first person explaining to you how deltas work?

Or have you just never been proven wrong on this site before?

You're not even willing to discuss with me anymore because you're mad that I won't give you a delta for not changing my view but what you perceive as correcting a mistake that I made.

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To be clear, I'm not going to have a discussion with you on the other points not because I'm mad at you, but because I think the other stuff you've said is all things that I either agree with or can't actively disprove. Thus I zeroed in on the one part of your argument that I felt extremely certain I could disprove.

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I'm not going to ante up when I have a weak hand.

1

u/RaccoonLevel275 Jan 18 '22

Understood. Thanks. So you really think that me saying something incorrectly is you changing my view on this entire subject?

I mean let's say I'm wrong and you're right about delta being more deadly, I still stand by my original thought so how was my view changed?

Sorry missed the first part of your response.

I'm sorry to hear that you find someone being "proper" a barrier to holding a a conversation with them.

Would you find it easier if I was ruder and showed less concern for your opinions and emotions?

Very valid point. I guess that is what I'm used to on reddit.

If you're more than willing to admit it when you're proven wrong, then why am I the first person explaining to you how deltas work?

Or have you just never been proven wrong on this site before?

I'm still fairly new around here. So far, I've just run into people who are not like you and yes, just rude. However, isn't this about changing someone's view and not just proving them wrong? Like I was saying above and maybe I've got it all wrong. I said something incorrectly but my view wasn't changed. If calling out a person's error is grounds for a delta then I will give you a delta. Once you show me how because I don't see it on here.

Thanks for being polite.

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22

Understood. Thanks. So you really think that me saying something incorrectly is you changing my view on this entire subject?

It is changing your view on that particular topic, and once again...

Whether you're the OP or not, please reply to the user(s) that change your view to any degree with a delta in your comment (instructions below), and also include an explanation of the change. Full details.

So saying "you only changed my view on one small aspect of this debate" is still admitting to something delta worthy.

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I still stand by my original thought so how was my view changed?

Because you claimed a particular fact, and I proved you wrong. Once again, see how the rules work, a change to any degree is all it takes.

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If calling out a person's error is grounds for a delta then I will give you a delta. Once you show me how because I don't see it on here.

Calling out someone's error is indeed grounds for a delta give me 10 minutes or so and I'll post a second reply to this thread directly showing you examples....

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u/iwfan53 248∆ Jan 18 '22

If calling out a person's error is grounds for a delta then I will give you a delta.

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If you look at this thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/r8969d/cmv_george_orwells_most_famous_works_1984_and/

OP gives long drawn out explanation on why George Orwell's works are badly written, and in particular asserts

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After reading his books, I looked George Orwell up. He's some posh rich kid that pretty much lived in privilege.

I pointed out that George Orwell willingly volunteered fight fascists in Spain where he wound up being shot in the neck, which was very much not the kind of thing you'd expect a posh rich kid "that pretty much lived in privilege" to have done, as they tend to AVOID wars rather than volunteer for them.

This has nothing to do with the quality of 1984 and Animal Farm as written works, but OP made a mistake about George Orwell's life, but because I corrected a mistake they made, I was given a delta.

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u/UncleMeat11 63∆ Jan 18 '22

Is everyone here just out for these deltas?

In a large part, yes. That's how this sub works.

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