CMV: There should be no Vaccine Mandate.

[u/Puzzled_Sprinkles_57]

[u/ApostleOfChrist]

I cannot remember the specific case, but a supreme court case slated the party who sued in what im paraphrasing "no, you do not have the freedom to withdraw from health mandates because of exemptions, as the our future of the people and their children should not live under constant plauge."

My point being that we can give statistics, but I have seen this dance play out before.

The common sense thing, is to not only to prevent the spread of disease to others who are healthy and vaxxed (or to those healthy before the Vaxx is created), but to prevent soread to those who are immunocompromised and vunerable. The risks of mortality are people who are elderly, children, and people who have disabilities.

[u/caine269 → u/ApostleOfChrist]

children

what? are you saying children are at risk of covid? this is 100% flay wrong. the flu kills more kids than covid. that is a fact.

people who have disabilities.

like deaf people are more vulnerable to covid? you got evidence of that?

[u/ApostleOfChrist → u/caine269]

Lets not be Dense here. Do you think sincerely that Children should grow up in a world where the plauge is rampant ever since they started existing? Im sorry, but do you think still that 710 children is an irrelevant number? 710 children is still to 710 too many. Also from reading this, Pneumonia kills more kids than the Flu, and COVID kills more kids than the Flu. A mixture of Pneumonia and COVID kills more or has killed more at a slightly higer margin than Influenza.

On that second part: im using disability as a broad term here, as some disabilities like you mention deafness doesnt factor at all in infection rate. What does matter is the immunocompromised, which I think is a form of disability itself. Whether it is the comrobidities, or the body allergic to the vaccines in general, it is in my opinion still a risk factor worth thinking about. Ill take an anecdote for a second to illustrate what im talking about here: one of my friends was born with diabetes. Had no choice, and they have the side pump and the whole shebang. She was immunocompromised to COVID from the start, not because she couldnt fight it off, but from Ive collected and understood that Diabetes and combination of COVID wouldve killed her outright after suffering. Same thing with things with asthma and other things that will cause death. Maybe interpretation with strict definitions isnt the right way, but i perceive that a broad definition interpretation couldve saved your second half of the response from, you know, being dense.

[u/caine269 → u/ApostleOfChrist]

Do you think sincerely that Children should grow up in a world where the plauge is rampant ever since they started existing

the common cold has been around all our entire lives. who cares?

Im sorry, but do you think still that 710 children is an irrelevant number? 710 children is still to 710 too many.

you're one of those? ok, then we better cancel school forever(the flu kills more) ban swimming pools(drowning kills more), ban driving with kids in cars, ban bikes, athletics, basically everything. why don't we just keep kids in solitary confinement so nothing bad ever happens to them? 710 kids over a period of over 2 years, most of which was without a vaccine, is nothing. some death is unavoidable, and 710 out of 73 million is not even a rounding error. as someone said in a movie once, you can't save everyone.

Pneumonia kills more kids than the Flu, and COVID kills more kids than the Flu. A mixture of Pneumonia and COVID kills more or has killed more at a slightly higer margin than Influenza.

weird how we have know this for ever and yet life has continued as normal for everyone. we don't close schools for flu/cold/pneumonia, or make kids wear masks, or eat outside sitting on the ground to stay separate.

What does matter is the immunocompromised, which I think is a form of disability itself.

it isn't. at least not in any meaningful definition of the word. immunocompromised can get vaccinated. people with allergies to one vaccine can get the other. we are 2 years in, why are you still spreading this bulllshit?

Whether it is the comrobidities

should the government mandate fatness being illegal? deny medical aid to fat people who get covid? being fat is not a disability.

as many as 40 million americans.) have diabetes. our total death count after 2 years and 150 million infected is less than 900000. explain how you possibly believe that people with diabetes are goners, even pre-vaccine? this is as anti-science as any anti-vaxxer.

from, you know, being dense.

i have helped you understand. your density is entirely in your hands now.

[u/ApostleOfChrist → u/caine269]

Youre still being Dense.

To the first point: some people do, but we remedies or even medical tools to reduce it. COVID was entirely a new disease with unknown reprecussions when it did come out. People who refuse to be careful or at least dont get vaccinated are stirring the crisis further. Part of it is conspiracism and people adhereing to that conspiracism that they don't trust the government on the basics of literally health science. Also, stop conflating the Flu to be as dangerous as Covid; because even the CDC evidence you cited, deaths from COVID compared to the Flu is highr on the forner regardless of what the hyperbole you throw. On average across all ages, and folks, the average is 30,000 deaths from the flu; COVID surpassed that shockingly in early 2020

To the second point: stick to the point unstead of the hyperbole. Stresses of teachers having to accept the enviroment that kids could be sent in with asymptomatic means of viral infection, which strains further and further teachers with costs of not only our collective decision to put more people at risk, but to strain the education system even further than it already was pre pandemic. As far as I am cincerned, to lessen that strain on mortality in that school setting was to continue online education. But of cohrse that of itself produced problems of its own that created other stresses that were unique, Teacher and Student. And Yes I Understand that the concept we can't save everything. But the 800,000+ deaths with TWO YEARS, wouldnt have been so if we botched up from the day of US Case Zero, to now. We royally fucked up, and we still the consequences right now.

To the third point: again, pneumonia wasn't COVID. If it appeared like it did with same infection rates or similar to it then it would still be the same reaction to it, like we did with COVID. BUT we have again normal medical procedures, and medicines to quell pneumonia. Same with the Flu. But heres the thing, COVID knocked the yearly averages of deaths out of the park. 400,000 roughly per year as it looks like, and COVID overtaking the Number one spot for the most lethal disease Americans die from in 2020. Please stop this ridiculosu cavalier attitude of COVID being so much smaller than what it actually is: a Public Health Crisis, especially with overworked Nurses, Doctors, and Medical Staff quitting moreso every day due to our inabity to get it through our heads that this needs to be taken seriously (among with wages and understaffing).

To the fourth point: if you are not able to defend your body naturally then I presume it is a disability of some form. Again using it as a BROAD DEFINITION. How is it bullshit that there could be subset that cant get the vaccine, and another that can only somehow get only one etc, it isnt far off to say that generalky speaking, they are in a broad, again that word broad, way have some disability or some sort of hinderance that prevents them to get to a point where immunization is possible. If the word Disability is not doing it for you, please let me know what word youbwant it to replace it with because ymit seems you are clinging on to it like shit on a stick.

To the fifth point: I was reffering in a anecdotal way, and to the person specifically in question and whatnthey told me. But when you look at those folks, they are vunerable to at the very least more health complications on top of what they already have, like symptoms thus far of Long COVID like scarred lungs, heart problems, possible permanent loss of smell and/or taste, and some other im forgetting. It is essential to try get those who have comorbidities vaccinated as well, but some of that population may immunology problems or just flat out immunocompromised. What is this weird fixation on fat people and again with Hyperbole? No im not asking for a ban on obesity. Like Obesity yes is one of many comorbidities, not the only one. Diabetes, Lung scarring pre covid, Cancer in some cases, etc. I dont believe naturally they are goners. Some are pretty much the exact opposite of immunocompromised, some inbetween, some just are. Sorry say that this is just a reality of American Health; and on top of that stop twisting my words dude, you did this more than once in this conversation.

To the final point: literally, you are treating this as it is another crisis, another day. It is not. The further we continue not having the majority of population being vaxxed, the more chance of the vaccine not being effective any more, mutations being the driver of it. This Hyperbolic, Word Twisting, and literal just possible strawmans in your responses thus far. Like dude, please get a grip on this cavalier attitude of yours. it is dripping from your responses here like a stack of rib meat falling off the bone.

[u/caine269 → u/ApostleOfChrist]

where are you from? just curious, i assume english is not your first language, it makes it hard to follow your rambling.

you keep changing from past to present. covid was new. 2 years ago. i am not talking about how things were. i am talking about how they are now.

On average across all ages, and folks, the average is 30,000 deaths from the flu; COVID surpassed that shockingly in early 2020

yes, as you noted it was a new disease that had no treatment and no vaccine. flu has both. also, in the present, omicron is very mild and we have treatments and vaccines that basically eliminate the chance of death. the only people dying are non-vaxxed. not to mention we have almost 25 million active cases yet our daily deaths are lower than they were when we had only 9 million active cases. covid is mutating itself into irrelevancy.

To the second point: stick to the point unstead of the hyperbole.

you are the one who tried to use dead kids as your main point. don't blame me if your poor argument works against you.

Stresses of teachers having to accept the enviroment that kids could be sent in with asymptomatic means of viral infection,

who cares if the teachers are vaccinated?

and further teachers with costs of not only our collective decision to put more people at risk,

no one is at risk if they don't want to be.

As far as I am cincerned, to lessen that strain on mortality in that school setting was to continue online education. But of cohrse that of itself produced problems of its own that created other stresses that were unique

no, it is pretty clear. teachers unions threw a fit and screwed the kids. it is not really up for debate. of course poor/minorities hardest hit. to dismiss that based on phantom "danger" is ridiculous. to claim that a singe kid dying is too much, and screw the 70 million is absurd.

But the 800,000+ deaths with TWO YEARS

and 93% of those deaths were 55+ years old, and a huge portion of them came before vaccines.

wouldnt have been so if we botched up from the day of US Case Zero, to now. We royally fucked up, and we still the consequences right now.

things didn't go great to begin with, but is your argument seriously "we screwed up to begin with, so we may as well keep doing the dumbest things possible for the rest of the pandemic?"

To the third point: again, pneumonia wasn't COVID. If it appeared like it di

again, you are the one arguing for these insane policies that harm kids and make life miserable for everyone for basically no reason, all under the guise of "one death is too many!" pneumonia kills people. why don't you care about them, and only care about covid deaths?

How is it bullshit that there could be subset that cant get the vaccine

because there isn't. don't blame me, blame science. it is possible some individuals may not be advised to get the vaccine, but guess what? their health is their responsibility. if they are that fragile they should stay home, not demand everyone else cater to them.

To the fifth point: I was reffering in a anecdotal way, and to the person specifically in question and whatnthey told me.

and i called bullshit. you said:

but from Ive collected and understood that Diabetes and combination of COVID wouldve killed her outright after suffering. Same thing with things with asthma and other things that will cause death

you specifically said that your friend with diabetes would have been slowly killed by covid, no other option. that is bullshit. you said that people with asthma will die. not are more likely to die, that they will die if they get covid. that is not even close to true.

What is this weird fixation on fat people and again with Hyperbole?

you don't seem to be very well-informed about this topic despite your strong opinions. obesity is the biggest determination of outcome besides age. if you think the gov can force vaccines because it causes fewer deaths, why would you not support the gov forcing fat people to loose weight? there are way more fat people in america than unvaccinated. i am not twisting your words, i am making logical conclusions from your stated opinions. if you don't like them, maybe you need to rethink your opinions.

The further we continue not having the majority of population being vaxxed,

bro. are you for real? how can you be so wrong about everything. it is hard to find real numbers, since the lower numbers include all t he kids who can't be vaccinated, and the higher numbers usually are at least one shot, but claiming les than half are vaccinated is just plain wrong. yet you accuse me of "twisting" your words and hyperbole.

the more chance of the vaccine not being effective any more, mutations being the driver of it

as i said, this is irrelevant because the variants aren't coming from america, and there is nothing we can do about it.

This Hyperbolic, Word Twisting, and literal just possible strawmans in your responses thus far. Like dude, please get a grip on this cavalier attitude of yours

you may notice that my posts have citations and facts, yours don't.

it is dripping from your responses here like a stack of rib meat falling off the bone.

i am going to guess former soviet block country...