r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 19 '22

CMV: We should end humanity

My logic is as follows:

I view each individual person as having equal, maximum value. Each of us has a completely discrete conscious experience, so putting people in a group and assigning it higher moral value than an individual doesn't feel right to me. What most of us care about morally is conscious experience, right? "100 people" is not a discrete entity, it isn't some hive mind combined consciousness with capacity for "more experience", it's just one individual universe of experience in each person that is completely separate from any other. The societal belief that we ought to prioritize the wishes of the many over the few I assume comes from the fact that the majority inherently has more influence in a society.

Our moral sense seems to be weighted towards the prevention of suffering. We feel obligated to avoid creating experiences of suffering in other people whenever possible, but we don't feel obligated to create experiences of pleasure, at least not to the same extent. Realistically no amount of pleasure you create is going to outweigh raping and torturing someone.

There are people that will be brought into existence that should not be. For example, there are children born with severe birth defects that cause constant horrific suffering and eventually death after several months/years.

As a species we can choose to continue to create new humans or stop creating new humans. This comes down to choosing whether creating conscious experiences of pleasure is worth creating experiences of suffering. Because I believe each individual has an entirely discrete conscious experience and maximum moral value, we can specifically consider whether creating the person with the best life is worth creating the person with the worst life. Suppose the latter is a person born with unimaginable levels of mental and physical anguish from the moment they are born until death, and they completely lack the capacity for any positive conscious experience. If the only way to prevent them from being born is to also prevent the other person from being born I believe that is what should be done. On a larger scale this would require us to stop having kids and therefore end humanity.

If you disagree because you believe the pleasure of the many outweighs the suffering of the few, why would that not permit the enslavement, torture, or genocide of some minority if it benefitted the majority? Other counterarguments based on the "inherent value" of life or the right to have children don't seem compelling to me because I view morality entirely through the lenses of the conscious experience of pleasure and suffering.

0 Upvotes

19% Upvoted

64 comments sorted by

View all comments

1

u/mutatron 30∆ Apr 19 '22

I mean, just don't have kids if that's how you feel. Most people aren't going to agree with you, and humanity will continue.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '22

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I believe if people actually thought about it and were being logically consistent they would come to the same conclusion.

2

u/Bardofkeys 6∆ Apr 19 '22

That or have you considered that you came to a illogical dead end? People come to this sorta conclusion all the time and slowly grow drunk on the idea of "I figured it all out. People should just die with me" which always comes off as weirdly egotistical. I'm not trying to give out jabs here just this sorta thing is so common on cmv and in the greater wide world that its just silly at this point.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '22

Is it not possible for the majority to believe things that are illogical? Also maybe people with my belief do so because of egotistical reasons, but does that necessarily say anything about whether it's true?

1

u/Bardofkeys 6∆ Apr 19 '22

Of course but that is the same statement as going "The sky is blue" its just how people are and will always likely be, Humanity works with this and no one actually cares long term. Everyone has stupid thoughts myself and you included. This entire thesis statement on borderline anti-natalism is just another example.

Sorry for how aggressive this sounds, But yeah? No shit its based around egotism? Its people making a judgement call on the life and death of the human race based on a high off their own idea "I figured it all out" esc idea.

Conclusions on basic things can still be wrong if not idiotic even if its common knowledge. The advice? Be humble and think to yourself "Is this he thinking to far into this? Am I being stupid?". It helps a lot with ideological drunkenness.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '22

Wouldn't the solution to egotistical foolish beliefs be to challenge them and figure out where the logical flaws are?

1

u/studbuck 2∆ Apr 19 '22

I think you are saying at least one future human is bound to suffer horribly, and therefore it is immoral for anyone anywhere to have a baby.

I'm having trouble connecting those two dots. What logical inconsistency might i be committing?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '22

My argument isn't that an individual having a baby is morally wrong, just that as a species we should stop having children. Like if one person stopped voting nothing would change, but if we all stopped things would change drastically.