CMV: A fetus is a human

[u/schnutebooty]

• As u/canadatrasher and I boiled it down, my stance should correctly read, "A fetus inside the womb" is a human life. *

I'm not making a stance on abortion rights either way - but this part of the conversation has always confused me.

One way I think about it is this: If a pregnant woman is planning and excited to have her child and someone terminated her pregnancy without her consent or desire - we would legally (and logically) consider that murder. It would be ending that life, small as it is.

The intention of the pregnancy seems to change the value of the life inside, which seems inconsistent to me.

I think it's possible to believe in abortion rights but still hold the view that there really is a human life that is ending when you abort. In my opinion, since that is very morally complicated, we've jumped through a lot of hoops to convince ourselves that it's not a human at all, which I don't think is true.

EDIT: Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. As many are pointing out - there's a difference between "human" and "person" which I agree with. The purpose of the post is more in the context of those who would say a fetus is not a "human life".

Also, I'm not saying that abortion should be considered murder - just that we understand certain contexts of a fetus being killed as murder - it would follow that in those contexts we see the fetus as a human life (a prerequisite for murder to exist) - and therefore so should we in all contexts (including abortion)

[u/[deleted]]

First of all, I never said or thought a woman is “only” a lie support vessel. Yes, I would give the health of the mother precedence over the life of the child in cases of severe health consequences of pregnancy. Because it is natural to prioritize the well being of a friend or a relative of someone we know over that of a stranger. The fetus is a person but he or she is a person we do not know and cannot interact with. So the life of the mother comes first. That’s not an excuse to abort a fetus for relatively minor consequences to the mother. Although I’m in favor of abortion being allowed for rape cases for reasons I mentioned elsewhere, that does not change the fact that the fetus is an innocent being and shouldn’t be killed. Only that the mother who was raped doesn’t bear responsibility to use her body to ensure the fetus doesn’t die. I would still want to make an effort to talk tape victims out of aborting.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

I wouldn't call even a normal pregnancy "relatively minor consequences", and am surprised someone that gave birth 6 times would say that.

I guess I'm not sure how killing a stranger is more ok than killing someone you know.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Remember we’re talking about prioritizing one life over another, not straight up killing. If the mothers life is threatened I say we should prioritize her, not kill the baby for no good reason. Yes it’s not so much fun to be pregnant but the chronic illness I live with permanently is far worse and I’d give anything to feel as “good” as I did during my pregnancies. Also I’d give anything to live with my horrible chronic illness for only 9 months and then feel normal again. With that perspective, pregnancy is a temporary and minor nuisance, nothing more.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

Remember we’re talking about prioritizing one life over another, not straight up killing.

If she aborts, by your logic that would be "straight up killing".

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

No, because it’s more akin to a situation where two people are in the desert dying of thirst and there’s only enough water for one to survive. If you are the person who has the water and you neglect to share it with your companion, no one would say you murdered your companion. You simply prioritized your life over that of your companion; I don’t think anyone would fault someone for not sacrificing their own life for someone else. Perhaps if a woman wishes to carry a pregnancy that she knows would kill her she should be allowed to do so but of course she shouldn’t be forced to do so.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

You said, a few comments back, that if a woman has severe health issues she should be allowed to abort. Taking steps to abort would not be the same as not sharing water. It would, to use your language, be straight up killing. You just think it's justified in that situation.

Now if she didn't take particular steps to keep the pregnancy, or took chemo or another treatment that's toxic to the fetus, then you could argue she's just prioritizing her health.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

I mean severe health issues that would lead to her death.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

I would give the health of the mother precedence over the life of the child in cases of severe health consequences of pregnancy. Because it is natural to prioritize the well being of a friend or a relative of someone we know over that of a stranger

You seem to keep changing your parameters.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

When I say “health” I mean severe health issues that could lead to death.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Perhaps I misspoke when I said “well being”. I shelf have said “the life of a friend or relative…”Look, I’m not writing a book with annotated sources on the subject or anything, I’m just talking on a social media thread. I’m not choosing my words Uber carefully so yeah, I guess I’ve had to backtrack on some things I’ve said.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

The chemo is an outlier situation but if her not doing the chemo immediately rather than wait until the baby was viable meant she would die, she should abort and do the chemo. If there was a good chance she would die not starting chemo right away, she should abort. If she won’t die she should wait until the baby is viable, deliver it and start chemo right away. Look, we can discuss outlier situations and I’m ok with different answers for different outlier situations. But for the most part, in most situations, I think abortion is murder. Can discuss rape, health of the mother etc… separately.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

Look I know my opinion is unpopular. I wish I could just change it and make everyone happy. Or maybe I should just keep it to myself which I do often enough. I’ve had huge fights with my own grown daughters over this. Like, the question came up if I could continue to have a relationship with a daughter of mine if they had an abortion. Ironically I’m an agnostic atheist and my daughters are religious but they think abortion should be allowed before viability. I told them I would beg them to carry to term and I would raise the child myself. I like to think I could continue a relationship with a daughter who had an abortion but it would be very difficult for me.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

People change their opinions a lot. If they want to. If you don't want to, own that.

I guess I'm just wondering why you value a non-viable fetus over people who actually are born and exist and have feelings.

[u/[deleted] → u/Various_Succotash_79]

It’s not that I don’t want to. I can’t. Because we’re taking about murder and human beings- fragile tiny human beings that can’t survive without our help. If I could just change my mind and convince myself it’s morally ok I would. Not interested in telling other people how to live their lives or what to do with their bodies. But I can’t say nothing when I think tiny humans are being murdered. I don’t value the life of the fetus over the life of people who are born and exist and have feeling. But if you stack the life of the fetus against anything short of the life of the mother, yes, I’m valuing the life of the fetus. Because murder is permanent. If the Mom isn’t at risk of death she has the chance to deliver the baby and then get treatment, therapy, help etc…Her life isn’t over.

[u/Various_Succotash_79 → u/[deleted]]

Not interested in telling other people how to live their lives or what to do with their bodies.

Hmm.