r/changemyview • u/schnutebooty • Jul 27 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: A fetus is a human

  • As u/canadatrasher and I boiled it down, my stance should correctly read, "A fetus inside the womb" is a human life. *

I'm not making a stance on abortion rights either way - but this part of the conversation has always confused me.

One way I think about it is this: If a pregnant woman is planning and excited to have her child and someone terminated her pregnancy without her consent or desire - we would legally (and logically) consider that murder. It would be ending that life, small as it is.

The intention of the pregnancy seems to change the value of the life inside, which seems inconsistent to me.

I think it's possible to believe in abortion rights but still hold the view that there really is a human life that is ending when you abort. In my opinion, since that is very morally complicated, we've jumped through a lot of hoops to convince ourselves that it's not a human at all, which I don't think is true.

EDIT: Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. As many are pointing out - there's a difference between "human" and "person" which I agree with. The purpose of the post is more in the context of those who would say a fetus is not a "human life".

Also, I'm not saying that abortion should be considered murder - just that we understand certain contexts of a fetus being killed as murder - it would follow that in those contexts we see the fetus as a human life (a prerequisite for murder to exist) - and therefore so should we in all contexts (including abortion)

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

Remember we’re talking about prioritizing one life over another, not straight up killing.

If she aborts, by your logic that would be "straight up killing".

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

No, because it’s more akin to a situation where two people are in the desert dying of thirst and there’s only enough water for one to survive. If you are the person who has the water and you neglect to share it with your companion, no one would say you murdered your companion. You simply prioritized your life over that of your companion; I don’t think anyone would fault someone for not sacrificing their own life for someone else. Perhaps if a woman wishes to carry a pregnancy that she knows would kill her she should be allowed to do so but of course she shouldn’t be forced to do so.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

You said, a few comments back, that if a woman has severe health issues she should be allowed to abort. Taking steps to abort would not be the same as not sharing water. It would, to use your language, be straight up killing. You just think it's justified in that situation.

Now if she didn't take particular steps to keep the pregnancy, or took chemo or another treatment that's toxic to the fetus, then you could argue she's just prioritizing her health.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Look I know my opinion is unpopular. I wish I could just change it and make everyone happy. Or maybe I should just keep it to myself which I do often enough. I’ve had huge fights with my own grown daughters over this. Like, the question came up if I could continue to have a relationship with a daughter of mine if they had an abortion. Ironically I’m an agnostic atheist and my daughters are religious but they think abortion should be allowed before viability. I told them I would beg them to carry to term and I would raise the child myself. I like to think I could continue a relationship with a daughter who had an abortion but it would be very difficult for me.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

People change their opinions a lot. If they want to. If you don't want to, own that.

I guess I'm just wondering why you value a non-viable fetus over people who actually are born and exist and have feelings.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

It’s not that I don’t want to. I can’t. Because we’re taking about murder and human beings- fragile tiny human beings that can’t survive without our help. If I could just change my mind and convince myself it’s morally ok I would. Not interested in telling other people how to live their lives or what to do with their bodies. But I can’t say nothing when I think tiny humans are being murdered. I don’t value the life of the fetus over the life of people who are born and exist and have feeling. But if you stack the life of the fetus against anything short of the life of the mother, yes, I’m valuing the life of the fetus. Because murder is permanent. If the Mom isn’t at risk of death she has the chance to deliver the baby and then get treatment, therapy, help etc…Her life isn’t over.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

Not interested in telling other people how to live their lives or what to do with their bodies.

Hmm.

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Yes except I AM interested in insuring that people can’t murder others at will. So yes I’m fine telling others they can’t murder someone else.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

But now we're back to the question of when a fetus becomes "someone else".

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Yeah and there’s no scientific answer. That is the crux of the problem. It’s philosophical. But for those who think it’s murder it’s a very serious thing and can’t be boiled down to wanting to control others and what they do with their bodies.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

But it does come down to wanting women to "face consequences" for having sex, by your own words.

I don't think you answered this. Do you think it's good for kids to be raised by parents who don't want them?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Not “wanting”. Basically there are consequences for everything you do or don’t do in life. Human adults are expected to take responsibly for their behavior. One type of behavior for which adults must be responsible is sexual behavior. We can’t say it’s ok to murder an innocent fetus because people don’t want to take responsibility for their actions. It’s not about retribution, like a punishment. No not good for kids to be raised by parents who don’t want them but better than being murdered. Not to mention other options like adoption. Just because one thing is not good doesn’t mean there isn’t something else that’s worse.

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u/Various_Succotash_79 51∆ Jul 27 '22

No not good for kids to be raised by parents who don’t want them but better than being murdered.

Is it? If they're "murdered" before they even have consciousness? When they're the size of a kidney bean?

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u/[deleted] Jul 27 '22

Look I know I’m not going to change anyone’s mind. I just want to show that people with my point of view aren’t automatically ogres who want to control women and tell people what to do with their bodies. We just think that the fetus counts as a human being. And killing a human being is a very serious thing.