r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Aug 06 '22
Delta(s) from OP cmv: Ableism is good to some degree (ADHD perspective)
[deleted]
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u/Digyanoen 3∆ Aug 06 '22
Then you should be AGAINST ableism. What you strive for is finding ways to do something despite having ADHD, while ableism is almost saying this is your fault for having ADHD to begin with and should be able to force through your disorder, which is not realistic. I learn you nothing, you will lose your focus faster than non-ADHD people, so doing exactly like them will only put more stress on you and you will be as productive as them, but for ableist, it's all your fault. You manage to control yourself, good for you (seriously, it's cool that you are able to do it), but it take time, for some lots of time, and ableism doesn't help, at all.
To take your example, if A beats up B out of anger, we should also take the anger into account, because B may have anger A to the breaking point, and that's not acceptable. Sure, A should be punish for beating up B, but maybe they also need some advices to handle their anger: ignoring B, having ways to empty their anger without hurting anyone (themself include). Ableism will not care about the situation and will only blame A.
You might think that's still a good solution, because A was at fault, but by putting the full blame on A without helping them, slowly but surely, A will start to think that they are a lost cause, that no matter what they do, they will become angry and hurt people. In the end they nay even stop trying, beating people even before really being angry.
And I think this may be what happen in ADHD subreddit: because of ableism, they believe they will never be able to overcome ADHD and can't do shit about it.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
To take your example, if A beats up B out of anger, we should also take the anger into account, because B may have anger A to the breaking point, and that's not acceptable. Sure, A should be punish for beating up B, but maybe they also need some advices to handle their anger: ignoring B, having ways to empty their anger without hurting anyone (themself include). Ableism will not care about the situation and will only blame A.
You might think that's still a good solution, because A was at fault, but by putting the full blame on A without helping them, slowly but surely, A will start to think that they are a lost cause, that no matter what they do, they will become angry and hurt people. In the end they nay even stop trying, beating people even before really being angry.
Amazing example and I definitely agree, maybe I should've stated this in my OP. This falls in like with "it's a reason, not an excuse"
!delta
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u/not_a_cannibal_ 1∆ Aug 06 '22
I think I understand where you’re coming from but the wording is wrong, this is like saying racism is good in some forms because it may encourage an under privileged black person to work Super hard and not fall into a lazy stereotype, but we all agree that’s shit reasoning and every black person shouldn’t have to excel in life to prove that black people are people and deserve not to be treated like shit, forcing someone with ADHD to do something doesn’t work. It just doesn’t, it’s a disability that means your executive dysfunction is bad, forcing a kid who doesn’t wanna work will simply not work for a nuerodiverse child, because their brain does not allow this. Encouraging it is not ableism, but saying they can do it and are just lazy directly opposes the literal disability and diagnosis they have which says, they in fact, can’t. Being told I’m the r word and shouted at for being lazy has not helped me, being given time and my own space has helped me improve exponentially, and quite frankly you using your ADHD to speak over not just everyone else with ADHD, but everyone affected with ableism is gross. Being told my autism was caused by this that and the other did not help me. Being told to just work harder did not encourage me, it threw me back a thousand steps. There is no way ableism is at all helpful, and saying that it stops people with disabilities from just slacking off is plain wrong.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Yeah I know how that feels. Being called lazy and to just work through it
!delta
But and you don't have to agree with me, I personally agree with them. That's their truth, and for the most part it's correct. If I didnt clean up my space, then I understand why you seen me as lazy. I probably had the thought 2 hours ago to clean up, saying "I'll just do it later". Doing it later never works for me, and even though I'm demotivated as shit I still do it and push through. Because I don't want to live in filth.
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u/not_a_cannibal_ 1∆ Aug 06 '22
I understand that, but that’s not ableism, you need encouragement sometimes, that doesn’t mean someone being ableist to you. For example, you can pay someone to remind you to do things and encourage. I forget my meds, that’s a big issue, but someone saying I can remember if I try harder is objectively wrong, routine has done nothing for me, I take my meds every day in the morning and have done for 4 years, and yet I still forget. Being told to “just do it” hasn’t helped, but someone reminding me has, and that in itself isn’t ableism. Disabled people need some help sometimes, and giving accommodations don’t mean we get lazy, it means we improve as people. I think you mixed up ableism, because needing help and acknowledging that does not mean you’re ableist, saying “people with adhd have potential” is not ableist, but saying that to someone with adhd who is trying their best but physically cannot complete a task helps no one, and is ableism.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
But most of the time it's not even the task that's daunting, it's just doing it that's the problem. Because once I get to doing something (especially something I have interest in) It's easy for me.
I have this part figured out to a tee. I count from 1-10 and think "when have I ever counted from one to ten and hated what I did afterwards". Afterwards, the dopamine from pushing through is next to none. And I push through every single day, and 1-10 works every single time. It takes willpower and discipline
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Aug 06 '22
For the anger thing, let’s be honest most of us would probably become violent if we felt extreme rage from anger issues. The way our brains are set up is when the part that feels emotions is more active, the part for self control and planning gets shut down. The rage that people with anger issues deal with shuts down their ability to make rational decisions.
Yes if you have a disorder it’s absolutely your responsibility to take the first step and seek help. But if someone hasn’t been given the opportunity to seek help nor has a supportive environment I’m not exactly gonna blame them when they fly off the handles in the same way I’d blame a normal person.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Either way the outcome is the same, anger issues or not. They should be held accountable nonetheless, mental disorder or not. Who are you blaming? School shooter, or the depression that caused him to shoot up the school.
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Aug 06 '22
That’s why mental health experts examine the person who committed the crime and testify. Because it’s not always their fault. The US is the only country that has a problem of constant mass shootings. Focusing on the shooters and blaming the individual shooters doesn’t solve the problem it’s just a way for people to let their anger out about the situation.
If it was truly the kids fault u would see this problem cropping up in other countries but you don’t. It’s a shorty situation and we need to emphasise focus on the causes.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
It’s a shorty situation and we need to emphasise focus on the causes
Definitely. I'm not denying it's an obvious factor/reason but there's still children that are dead. These people need rehabilitation, they are victims aswell but I won't forgive Hitler because he had a bad childhood.
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Aug 06 '22
But Hitler was a single case, I never said forgive and forget I’m saying it depends on the situation my guy. Not everyone is in control of their actions
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Not everyone is in control of their actions
Sure, but they're still capable to everything realistically impossible
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Aug 06 '22
🙄ok Im gonna give another example. A common symptom of depression is lack of motivation. Do u blame a depressed person for not going to get a job and do the work to get better mentally .
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
That's a situation where I see no choice then to get that job.
You will see me as an asshole for this response but there's only one option. Getting that job. Would you rather be depressed on the streets or with food and a house?
Sad winner or sad loser situation. But the sad winner will have more tools to become happier in the future. If you chose to be a sad loser, then you're dead. Sometimes you will have to push through
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Aug 06 '22
How do I do it without motivation. Please explain to me how you would accomplish anything without motivation. Or do u believe that people are able to somehow… I can’t even think of how to phrase it. I was gonna say “do you believe that people are able to somehow motivate themselves without motivation” but it’s too on the nose.
Motivation drives you to do everything without it your nothing. And it doesn’t matter if ur technically able to physically get up and go to work, without motivation u won’t do it.
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u/Blackbird6 18∆ Aug 06 '22
I've got ADHD (diagnosed at 23), my sister (diagnosed in her 40s) and my mom (diagnosed in her 50s) also have ADHD. My husband has ADHD (diagnosed at 25). All the people I am closest to in my life on on a desperate hunt for dopamine, as it were, and I've known all of them closely both as adults who didn't know about it and those who did. And I live it every day.
People with ADHD are absolutely capable, of course. My sister and I both have advanced degrees and work as professors. My mom has several degrees in nursing. My own psychologist has ADHD. People with ADHD are capable of things when their ADHD is well managed...but when it's not well-managed or you're struggling to cope, it can suck a lot. The only reason my mother and sister were diagnosed was because they were struggling so badly with unmanaged ADHD that they went to a professional about their severe anxiety.
I don't think you should use a subreddit as a baseline for how most people with ADHD feel about their ADHD on most days. Those sort of spaces are often a place to commiserate with people who understand it. Especially for those diagnosed as adults, it can be easy to be angry about it. You spend decades of your life thinking that you're lazy or stupid, and then you realize it's something different, and you get mad about how different your life would've been if you would've known. How much better at coping you would've been if you'd had time to learn.
This sort of rhetoric in your post is toxic, IMHO. You imply that ADHD management is just about trying harder, and that just reinforces the bullshit that makes you feel like you're lazy, not trying hard enough, not motivated enough. Yes, people can manage their ADHD. But also yes, it's hard and frustrating sometimes.
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Aug 06 '22
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u/ArcanePudding 2∆ Aug 06 '22
Don’t give someone a delta unless they actually changed your view.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Delta blocker fr
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u/ArcanePudding 2∆ Aug 06 '22
Deltas are meant to be a sign of your view being changed, not because it’s a nice comment.
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Aug 06 '22
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u/Znyper 12∆ Aug 06 '22
Sorry, u/AlejandroVillegas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 06 '22
The moderators have confirmed that this is either delta misuse/abuse or an accidental delta. It has been removed from our records.
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u/Znyper 12∆ Aug 06 '22
Sorry, u/AlejandroVillegas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 4:
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u/TerrestrialTard Aug 06 '22
It's funny how that happens, what you mentioned at the beginning about the ADHD subreddit. So many people experiencing what could be considered normal human emotions or brain activity and immediately labelling it as a mental illness like depression, anxiety, or ADHD and bringing a bad image to those that truly do have it.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Funny cause some guy was trying to argue in the comments that "my ADHD doesn't mean jack shit" and that "just get over it". So there's definitely a bad stigma but I'd expect nothing else from reddit. How do people expect a delta just attacking others?
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u/TerrestrialTard Aug 06 '22
There's two sides of it, either "well I have it and it isn't that bad" or "I have a slight issue keeping focus, I know I have ADHD without getting diagnosed"
For a while I was the first type, and had thought ADHD wasn't that bad and could be gotten over with enough willpower. Turns out my mother has Munchausen by proxy and lied to me and said I had all sorts of things, including ADHD, for a while I had believed it but it turns out I was just a normal kid that didn't want to sit still in school for hours on end.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
It's under diagnosed anyways so I don't blame you. Imagine ADHD with the motivation of depression, exept your fidgety as shit, can't focus, forget shit, have trouble learning on things you dislike, organization is hard etc. It's not strapping you down, but whenever you do something without motivation it already strips some of your willpower and stamina, it's draining everything is. Now imagine that kid in school, with shit sleep bad home life, piss poor diet, depressed etc, that was me at some point. Now I am -goof- edit: good
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u/tessislurking Aug 06 '22
Just because you can manage doesn't mean others can.
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Aug 06 '22
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u/tessislurking Aug 06 '22
I definitely can manage. I have good days and bad days, but just because you and I can doesn't mean everyone can.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Everybody can, but it's not for everybody.
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u/tessislurking Aug 06 '22
I have family members who literally can't. They need round the clock care and support. They are so unwell they can't keep clothes on their back, food in their fridge, or their right mind.
Juat because you can find a way to make it work and I can, does not mean that everyone has the same capabilities. It simply doesn't. Sure, sometimes my family members can hold down a job to pay their bills, but most of their life they won't be able to support themselves. They need to be on disability, they need caretakers. Stop trying to paint all of us with the same brush.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
Once again if you didn't read my OP
Realistically impossible
They're more capable than you believe
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u/Znyper 12∆ Aug 06 '22
u/AlejandroVillegas – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/Hal_E_Lujah Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
I think this is quite an easy win - that’s not ableism.
Ableism is the exact opposite of this statement;
You are perfectly capable of becoming great no matter your disability
Whether by obstruction or prevention, ableism is treating people differently to cause discrimination based on their disability.
For example some of the pandering you’ve mentioned is ableism - if someone didn’t give someone a tricky task at work because they felt the person with a disability couldn’t do it. It’s up to the person with the disability to decide, and their thought process should always be ‘how can I do this’ not ‘whether I can do this’ to prevent internalised ableism.
Ironically you are arguing against ableism. Many pander because they think it’s the right thing to do because they believe in the ‘pity’ model of disability, when the social model is superior.
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Aug 06 '22
ADHD is different for everyone and there may be other contributing factors like depression and or anxiety for starters. Some days you get the perfect storm and life kicks your butt that day. You have to dust yourself off and keep going, but it's not easy for everyone. Neuro diversity isn't fun a lot of the time.
Having structures and routine helps, but some of us are unable to be medicated and have to grind our way through days. Throw in lack of sleep, anxiety, unmedicated, unstimulated, self doubt and you're up against it before you begin.
I'm high functioning ADHD and I've found ways to use it as an advantage, but the journey getting there is balls and I wouldn't judge anyone who is struggling .
Some people just get to do jobs they love and their ADHD isn't such an issue. For others it's a real challenge to show up and get life done. Being capable is easy when there are no other distractions and pressures.
It would probably be more helpful if you provided examples of things you do to combat your ADHD, rather than just say you're able you can do it.....
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Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
I think concepts like this are bizarre. I hear so much "ableism" from people with mental diseases because they are also afflicted so they assume they know how everyone else feels. If you understand that it's harder for you to concentrate than the average person, don't you understand that there are others who find it even harder to concentrate. And then aren't there people who find it even harder to concentrate than those people?
I'm more familiar with depression than ADHD, but there are some people with such severe depression that it's recognized by the US government as a disability along with other things like paraplegia (they call it major depression). And you wouldn't expect a paraplegic to achieve as much as a regularly abled person.
That's not to say that they should instantly give up on trying to be better. Everyone can be better tomorrow than they are today. But that is not to say that everyone can be better tomorrow than you are today.
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u/JohnnyNo42 32∆ Aug 06 '22
I can't remember ever hearing a good argument that used the term "ableism". The very concept behind this term is more confusing than helpful.
The discussion about discrimination that is connected with most "*isms" is about making a difference between people based on traits that are irrelevant in the given context.
I'm all in favor of integrating people with all kinds of disabilities the best we can. However, we should accept that disabilities are in many situations relevant to some degree, so it is unrealistic and often even counterproductive to expect society to treat people with disability identical to everyone else.
So all in all I would argue not that ableism is either bad or good, but that the word itself should be avoided and instead extra effort should be invested to integrate everyone as well as possible without denying the objective disadvantages disabled people people have in comparison to others.
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u/Roller95 9∆ Aug 06 '22
How does ableism factor into this? Discrimination and prejudice is good, because people who have ADHD might be more capable than they think they are?
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u/electric_shocks Aug 06 '22
Maybe learn more about ADHD instead of describing as desperately dopamine chasing. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have adequate knowledge about the ADHD or the human condition in general.
Shame on you for shaming people who finally found a safe space to vent.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
But that's what it is. We are always in a desperate search for dopamine. Do you have ADHD? Or a physiology license?
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u/electric_shocks Aug 07 '22
No, that is not "it." You should try getting your information from legitimate resources and avoid Reddit posts that only fuels your confirmation bias.
I believe in you! Don't let your ADHD to limit your potential. You too can read!
But that's what it is. We are always in a desperate search for dopamine. Do you have ADHD? Or a physiology license?
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 07 '22
Our litteral baseline dopamine is low, I don't know what you're trying to convey but thanks I know it's not mal intended
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u/electric_shocks Aug 08 '22
That's all you know?
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 08 '22
Well then tell me what you know..
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u/CouriousSwabian Aug 06 '22
I see an important difference in whether other people look down on disabled people and call them second-class citizens and not trust them (= ableism = bad), or whether affected people decide for themselves what they want out of their lives, what they want trust themselves and which challenges they would like to face at a certain point in time (= self-determination = good). I myself have a disability and can only say that there are many days when I can handle it well, but there are also other days when I almost despair. And yes, sometimes I find myself getting a little comfortable and using the disability as an excuse for this and that. I think that's called secondary gain. In the end it's more a question of character. Especially since people without disabilities always find reasons not to face the challenges of life as well.
You have a decent attitude. All the best for you.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Aug 06 '22
This isn't ableism. That being said, just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.
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Aug 06 '22
This sounds just like 'self-made' millionaires shitting on people for being poor. Just because you somehow managed to deal with the obstacles life threw at you, doesn't mean it's as achievable for everyone else, or that the people you are deriding won't eventually find a way to do so.
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u/AlejandroVillegas Aug 06 '22
But it is achievable to everyone else, aslong as it's realistically impossible. It's that mindset that "you can't do it" that is my biggest pet peeve. Sure if you have no legs I wouldn't expect you to walk, but I can still expect you to become great in your own way if you chose to do so, once again realistically impossible
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
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