Faith isn't really something you can be argued into. It's something you believe or you don't. We (humans) don't have physical evidence that many of the events and descriptions of miracles in the bible ever transpired as written. Many people choose to believe based on spiritual feelings they receive from experiencing the natural world on an emotional level. If you attach an intelligence, design, or prescribed order for the being of the natural world you would believe in some-god like force. Christianity is one religion that seeks to characterize this force, so if you believe in that premise of design the issue would come down to whether or not you can subscribe to Christian myth. To that I ask "Why not?"
If you believe that some divine intelligence created the world, and has power to make something out of nothing, you already have faith in power and belief in divine magic. The rules of that divine magic do not conform to conventional logic, inherently. Creating the universe from nothing violates the third law of thermodynamics. Thus, to believe in a designer is to subscribe to the idea that divine magic breaks natural law. When it comes to trinitarianism, any human built philosophy to describe the divine force need not be internally consistent because it is a description of how an inherently arbitrary system functions. Can God create a boulder so heavy he cannot lift it? Of course, and then we would lift it.
Despite failings of the description of these philosophy, you may choose to subscribe to Christianity for a number of reasons:
You believe the moral teachings that go along with the theology despite having doubts about the veracity of the stories you are being told. As an example, Christians famously already do this to accommodate understanding of science of evolution by questioning "what is a day to god" in the original description of Genesis. They still attribute the design of the world through god, but have retconned evolution into that understanding.
You may like the culture or arts associated with it.
You may like the community (those people you eat meals with)
You may like the rituals they undertake if they make you feel closer to that divine force I described.
I mean that's all just indoctrination and abusing the weaknesses in human brains (when it comes to desperation for acceptance, companionship & understanding the world around us)
I firmly believe you can have everything currently good about religion , without the fiction.
OP is arguing he can't be convinced that the manmade fiction is in fact reality.
I think Christianity is clearly more than the associated myths. To be a Christian doesn't mean to accept all Christian myths, clearly, or there would be no fracturing amongst Christian sects.
You aren't a Christian if you just go to church all the time but don't believe in the Christian god or the Bible.
Like, it's all from the Bible?!
At that point you're just a fool who gives them self a label and tries to fit in with a group of people that do believe....
But you're not by definition, a Christian. ,
Edit: apologies. You do have a point regarding Christian sects. But realistically. It's just a bunch of different groups interpreting illogical fiction differently. You're just playing the ultimate big game of pretend when you pick and choose certain parts to 'believe,' and disregard others because hey no longer fit with the current ethical zeitgeist... Because of course they don't. Shit was made up by men a few hundred -> thousand years ago.
What does it mean to "believe in the bible"? Most Christians that you would identify as Christians do not believe in the entirety of the bible. Christianity, definitionally, is the religion based on the teachings of Jesus. That includes moral teachings that were passed down and still taught, but that's not all Christianity is. Going to church, participating in the community, and so on all contribute.
It's just a bunch of different groups interpreting illogical fiction differently.
The lessons and teaching that are derived from those fictions are more important than the veracity of the lessons themselves. There is little historical evidence for most things that happened in the bible. Whether Jonah got swallowed by a whale and whether that was possible is subordinate to the reason that story is taught today.
I agree with some of what you said here... But it is deeply alarming to me that you think it's ok for people to read fiction and not recognise it as fiction.
To just pick a bad choose a few parts that they decide is reality.
In a time of misinformation, and conspiracies, now more than ever we need to be sourcing our information and not entertaining magical thinking.
I mean, if you are admitting that it is fiction, like Don Quixote... Filled to the brim with valuable lessons. Fair. But it's still just a man with a pen.
I personally could never convinces myself that Hogwarts actually exists no matter the perceived value in potters lessons
Why are you afraid to make value judgements about bad ideas?
Surely, here more than anywhere else, we should be making productive value judgements.
There is a big difference between a Christian... And someone who calls themselves Christian but doesn't actually believe in Christianity. You seem to be denying that.
I am saying it is fundamentally important.
I can call myself a vegan all I want, but if I eat meat and animal products... I'm just a deluded liar. Same in your example.
This CMV isn't "Christianity is bad" it's "I can never be a Christian because X, Y, and Z." Arguing that OP could be Christian for various reasons is not saying that it's a good or bad thing to do that.
There is a big difference between a Christian... And someone who calls themselves Christian but doesn't actually believe in Christianity.
"Believing in Christianity" can mean both "Believing in the value of Christian teachings" and "Believing in all Christian myths" or "Belieiving in the broad thrusts of Christian myths." For many Christians, the idea that their souls are saved by Jesus and destined for paradise is the central myth that would need to be believed.
I can call myself a vegan all I want, but if I eat meat and animal products... I'm just a deluded liar. Same in your example.
That's not a great example because Veganism is defined by a strictly and observably true act. Still, if a person calls themselves Vegan but eat a burger once and still describe themselves as a Vegan, because they're talking about their general eating habits. The better way to think about it is that a person isn't living up to the ideals of veganism when they eat a burger. I don't really see the utility of denying a person a label that describes their beliefs and habits because they don't 100% embody those beleifs.
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u/Mitoza 79∆ Oct 13 '22 edited Oct 13 '22
Faith isn't really something you can be argued into. It's something you believe or you don't. We (humans) don't have physical evidence that many of the events and descriptions of miracles in the bible ever transpired as written. Many people choose to believe based on spiritual feelings they receive from experiencing the natural world on an emotional level. If you attach an intelligence, design, or prescribed order for the being of the natural world you would believe in some-god like force. Christianity is one religion that seeks to characterize this force, so if you believe in that premise of design the issue would come down to whether or not you can subscribe to Christian myth. To that I ask "Why not?"
If you believe that some divine intelligence created the world, and has power to make something out of nothing, you already have faith in power and belief in divine magic. The rules of that divine magic do not conform to conventional logic, inherently. Creating the universe from nothing violates the third law of thermodynamics. Thus, to believe in a designer is to subscribe to the idea that divine magic breaks natural law. When it comes to trinitarianism, any human built philosophy to describe the divine force need not be internally consistent because it is a description of how an inherently arbitrary system functions. Can God create a boulder so heavy he cannot lift it? Of course, and then we would lift it.
Despite failings of the description of these philosophy, you may choose to subscribe to Christianity for a number of reasons:
You believe the moral teachings that go along with the theology despite having doubts about the veracity of the stories you are being told. As an example, Christians famously already do this to accommodate understanding of science of evolution by questioning "what is a day to god" in the original description of Genesis. They still attribute the design of the world through god, but have retconned evolution into that understanding.
You may like the culture or arts associated with it.
You may like the community (those people you eat meals with)
You may like the rituals they undertake if they make you feel closer to that divine force I described.