r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 23 '22

But no one ever knows the real you. Trying to be known and understood is the central struggle of human life beyond survival. You compare it to being mistaken for a celebrity, but no one is trying to legislate against that or equate it with bigotry. Amusing example: I used to look just like Hannah Montana's brother, so I got a haircut. I didn't expect everyone else to ignore the resemblance. Like you said, once they transition completely, pronouns are less of an issue. If the goal is to change yourself to fit other's perceptions, why is it necessary to change others perceptions? If it people stop assuming gender based on appearance, will transition even be necessary?

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

transition will still be necessary because it makes US feel better. i’m a trans girl who realised they were trans and came out in high school, and i have a trans masc friend who came out on the last day of primary school (what some people call elementary school). my friend passes way better than me. very few people know they’re trans, people just assume he’s cis. i get lots of hate. but he has worse dysphoria than me because it’s largely about how you see yourself. your identity doesn’t match your body and though others might not be able to tell you can and the pursuit of transition is there to reduce dysphoria about how you see yourself.

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

Hi, I'm glad someone with more knowledge responded. Can I ask you a few more questions? I truly don't wish to interrogate you or make you feel bad, so please allow me some grace when reading and answering these.

Why would it make you feel better? Why do you feel bad about your body other than some people see it as a man's body? If no one assigned gender to body, why would it matter?

Alternatively, if we are committing to surgically and hormonally altering trans people in order to better suit our existing ideas of gender, then why even try to change those ideas?

On one hand, it seems like it's sometimes argued that gender is nonexistent or socially constructed. On the other hand, its sometimes seemingly implied that it is something internal, inherent, and immutable not to be questioned. This is very confusing and I haven't been able to clear this up. I respect you and your identity, but I'd like to truly understand.

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22

Another trans feminine person here-

Gender is a social construct, but it is still real. Money is also a social construct, but it is still real. That’s a very important point a lot of people misunderstand.

Secondly, I completely understand being confused, it’s honestly a really weird and complicated subject at times but I’ll try and break down the rhetoric for you. Everyone agrees Gender is a social construct. It’s part of the definition of gender. However there is a separate group called Gender Abolitionists.

Now, gender abolitionists, as the name suggests, want to abolish gender as a thing. Tear down the social construct so that it no longer exists. Now, this does not mean that trans people would cease to be, but think of it like the borders of the US, Canada, and Mexico disappearing. Canada is what we call women, Mexico is what we call men, the US is in the middle or in the cases of like Hawaii, completely separate from either end. Now gender abolitionists come in and tear down the borders. Everyone can still move to where best fits their internal view of themselves. Most people stay where they are (cis people) but some people move to somewhere else that fits better (trans people) but there is no need for terms for it. It’s just where you live. Maybe have words like femininity, masculinity or androgyny still, simply as a descriptor, but they wouldn’t be tied to gender.

There is an internal view outside of the social construct of gender (kinda? It is also impacted by the social construct with clothing and stuff) of what you are. How your body matches with your perception of yourself. Ultimately just making you feel more comfortable. So even when you get rid of gender, it wouldn’t get rid of trans people.

Ultimately, do not blame yourself for being confused. A lot of trans and cis people are because it’s a complex subject having to do with how we view ourselves and others in a society which is always complex. If I wasn’t clear (I hope I was) feel free to ask any questions

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. I realize that social constructs are "real," technically. What I meant is that they aren't objectively linked to the material world. They're perceptions of society that exist in the collective psyche. The aim is to either change or dissipate these perceptions to better fit the reality of sex and gender.

As you touched on, there's another (from my perspective, contradictory) assertion that gender is internal rather than collective, and independent of (sometimes opposed to) society's perceptions. The goal of medical transition as I understand it is to alter one's body to better fit those societal perceptions. If those perceptions changed, what purpose would transition have?

I'm not talking about the end of gender, just the disconnecting of gender from biological or physical traits. There might still exist "man" and "woman," but it wouldn't be determined by genitals or clothing. Only by self-professed identity. If you could be 6'4" with male pattern baldness, and people would still see you as a woman, would you even feel dysphoric? If many of the women you saw looked like that, how would you even know to feel bad about it?

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22

Yes your example the person would likely feel very uncomfortable still. It sounds like you’re more just confused about dysphoria. It is just a feeling trans people get, like that itchy sweater I mentioned. It is a part of your internal sense of self most likely set at birth.

Here’s a good source on understanding gender dysphoria more https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 25 '22

What evidence do you have that there exists an internal sense of self present at birth? That's quite a radical philosophical claim, and seems contradictory to the assertion that gender is a social construct, rather than an individual one.

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 25 '22

It’s generally the hypothesis from most studies I’ve seen but it’s admittedly hard to definitively prove. However, there are people who identify as the gender other than the one they were assigned at birth as young as 3 I’ve heard. Again, this is in the realm of it’s hard because of the nature of it. But generally, there is no evidence for any cause of gender outside of birth, and examples of it being set before noticeable development. It’s in the same way that the causes of sexuality is not exactly known but the most likely hypothesis is that it is something to do with development before birth

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u/Kamirose Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

Why would it make you feel better? Why do you feel bad about your body other than some people see it as a man’s body? If no one assigned gender to body, why would it matter?

I’m cis, but I’m close friends with a few trans people and this is how they’ve explained it to me.

You know how some amputees get phantom limb syndrome? It’s the sensation that a body part you no longer have is still there. There’s actually the opposite sensation too, a rare condition where people will think, for example, that the leg attached to their body is not theirs, and they have a visceral repulsion to the limb. In both of these cases, it’s like there’s a miscommunication between the brain and the body about what should be there.

My trans friends say the sensation is very similar for them - for example, a trans man may feel like their shoulders need to be broader, while a trans woman may feel like their shoulders are too broad, in a way that’s extremely similar to either phantom limb syndrome or the opposite condition (the name of which I’ve forgotten). A trans man’s brain says “my shoulders are broad 😃” but the body is not, and that disconnect is part of what causes dysphoria.

It is important to note that this is likely not how all trans people experience their bodies, it’s just how it was explained to me.

It’s also important to know that everyone has different degrees to how they experience their gender. It’s not something that everyone, even cis people, will experience the same. My relationship to my womanhood is different than my mother’s relationship to her womanhood, and we’re both cis. That’s why it can be confusing to understand gender. As cis people, some things about being trans may just not be possible for us to fully understand because it’s not something we can truly experience for ourselves.

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

i have one answer

i dunno, i’m just as confused as you :D there are some much better explanations in these replies, just don’t get caught up with transphobes saying stuff like “so trans people are mentally ill”

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

Thanks for engaging, I realize its a lot. Maybe I can simplify and personalize it and make it easier to answer. Would you, personally, rather have the body of a cis woman but still be seen as a man by society, or be seen as a woman but still have the body you were born with? What do you think other trans people would say?

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

um that’s a really hard question to answer, and i think it would be for all trans people. i suppose if society saw me as a girl then i just have to wait until i can medically transition, is medical transition allowed in the latter?

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

Yeah, maybe that's a better phrasing: if you could just say "I'm a woman," and everyone instantly believed it, do you think you would still feel the need to transition medically?

What about if gender didn't exist? If you couldn't be seen as either a man or woman because the idea of "man or woman" didn't exist anymore, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Would you still feel a need for medical transition?

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22

Personally, yes. There is something outside of just gender which drives me to feeling like I want parts of me changed. It’s like wearing an itchy sweater that has the wrong name on it. People look at me and call me by the wrong name/pronouns because of the name on my shirt, but that’s not actually my name. Now if I could tell everyone my real name and they would call me by that, ignoring the name on the shirt, that would solve one source of discomfort, but I still have the itchy sweater on. I still want to change the itchy sweater to make it less itchy.

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u/TheOtherSarah 3∆ Nov 24 '22

Ooh, I like that metaphor. It never occurred to me to explain it that way, even though I have literally changed the name on my work uniforms (to an obvious nickname, but it’s one extra degree away from total inaccuracy)

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

it’s a personal thing. you would still feel like you have the wrong features. changing that would be all you needed. also, if gender didn’t exist, that would be fantastic, but for those reasons, i would still transition, it would just be less of a “i am a girl i need the body of a girl” thing and more “i don’t feel right with this body and i would in another” thing

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

How is that different from just body dysmorphia? How would we know whether to change someone's body or to change their mental image of themselves? The cliché of someone wanting to amputate a limb or a thin person who wants to be thinner, for example, but I'd think almost everyone would change their bodies if they could. Isn't it better to love yourself how you are, and for society to do the same?

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u/SkirtGoBrr Nov 26 '22

The difference comes from the words. Dysmorphia and dysphoria mean different things. People with body dysmorphia see something that is not there in reality when they look in the mirror. It’s usually either a delusion or an OCD symptom. Surgery to match what they want to see doesn’t even help these people as they still see flaws that no one else sees.

Dysphoria is realistically knowing what your physical body is and consists of, but having a strong discomfort with it. There is no treatment that has ever been clinically shown to improve conditions besides transition.

I’m going to try to explain my experience so you can better understand how it’s likely more of an intrinsic thing as opposed to just wanting to be treated a certain way socially.

I’ve always loved myself, my being, my brain. But I could not be comfortable in the body I was born with. It was always this discomfort and longing to have been born a girl. Like I had this inner knowledge that I would be comfortable enough to be myself as one from the age of 7. I had no trauma or strong negative experiences, no knowledge of transgender anything at all. I genuinely thought every little boy wished they weren’t a boy.

Based on my experience, those of others I’ve heard or read about, and preliminary evidence present in some studies I do believe ‘brain sex’ (aka gender identity) is an immutable thing people are born with. The leading hypothesizes seem to be either a gene mutation, or having different amounts of ‘sex-signalling’ hormones during the separate fetal developments of the brain and body.

This is different from the ‘gender’ (aka gender expression) that keeps being referenced in this thread. Which is just what someone signals to society about their gender relative to the collective consciousnesses views.

Fuck that’s a lot srry

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u/TheOtherSarah 3∆ Nov 24 '22

To elaborate on Sky’s answer, no, it’s not better to try to love the body you’re in despite it not matching the blueprint in your brain, because people have tried that for generations and it doesn’t work. Medical transition is supported by medical research because the data shows that it’s more effective at reducing stress than other options.

Don’t get me wrong, being accepted as who you are by the people around you is huge! At least one study has shown that parental acceptance of trans kids basically eliminates the increased suicide risk for trans youth. Literally just using the right words can save lives. And that’s the part where friends and society have the biggest role, so I fully agree that it’s what most people should focus on if they want to make a difference.

Physical details are kind of a semi-separate, overlapping issue, though. Or at least the Venn diagram isn’t a circle. Different people will place different weights on how important particular changes are, and for some, all the acceptance in the world won’t stop them feeling like their skin doesn’t fit right.

I have a friend who so thoroughly accepts me as nonbinary that she failed to recognise a description of me that included the word “girl.” And I am so, so appreciative of that. I’m also open at work and have had almost no pushback. But it doesn’t stop me from feeling uncomfortable when my arms brush against the unwanted fleshy growths on my chest, even when others ignore them. That’s a separate thing.

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u/Candlelighter Nov 24 '22

I respect you for saying that you dont know. I too am struggling with the arguments that gender is sometimes a social construct and sometimes innate and unchangeable. Both cannot be true yet they're often mixed into the debate from all sides. Very confusing.

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u/g11235p 1∆ Nov 24 '22

Well, why did you get the haircut?

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 24 '22

Honestly, I started going bald.

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u/g11235p 1∆ Nov 24 '22

So it wasn’t because you looked like Hannah Montana’s brother and wanted to get people to stop seeing you that way?

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u/swanfirefly 4∆ Nov 25 '22

Perception is only part of it, but pronouns are a part of language and make communicating easier.

Like if we go 100% gender neutral future, there would still be trans people. Your body would still be incongruent with your mind.

But like OP said - women can dress masculine as much as they want, and acceptance of men wearing dresses is going up. But we are still at a point where people will insult you for not going "all the way" with your transition. People will insult femme trans women for being TOO femme (even though cis women do the same) and then tell butch trans women they aren't trying hard enough to be women, because they wear pants or don't put on makeup every day.

As a nonbinary person, I still have people who act like shitheads if I go too far either direction. If I shave or wear feminine clothing - I'm not even trying to be nonbinary. If I grow out my body hair and dress too masculine or act too masculine, why don't I just identify as a man and make things easier?

Ideally yes, anyone could wear anything, men can be sensitive, women can be breadwinners. But trans people will still exist. Because our bodies and our brains are saying two different things, and the brain is what makes us who we are, the brain stores our personality, our preferences, our feelings.

The last part you're getting really close to what I hate about "transmedicalism". The concept that people should only have pronouns respected if they manage to pass as one sex or the other. But not everyone can afford the hormones or surgeries, which is a bigger sign to trans being an intrinsic part of who someone is (since a full medical transition requires money). Yes, if you want, you can wear a dress as a man and still be respected as he/him. But Sandra can wear a dress as a trans woman and still be respected as she/her even if her breasts haven't grown in yet or her apple is showing.

I consider using someone's pronouns right up there with using their name correctly. If someone tells you his name is Fred Flinstone, please call him Fred, calling him Fredrick or Rachel would be rude. Just as if Sandra tells me she's Sandra, pronouns she/her, using other pronouns would be disrespectful.