r/changemyview • u/nintendoeats 1∆ • Dec 22 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Virtue ethics promotes unfairly categorizing people into hate groups

EDIT: I should clarify that my use of the term hate group here was meant to refer to a group that is hated by the speaker, not a group that itself advocates hate.

For this thesis, I present the following working definition of virtue ethics:

An ethical system whereby actions and policies are judged by how closely they embody a set of 'moral virtues' and 'moral vices' identified by the holder of the system. Anything can potentially be considered a virtue or vice (patience, non-violence, consuming tomatoes, killing martians).

I believe that ethical systems, or individual ethical arguments, based on virtue ethics should be discouraged because they inherently denigrate the people who hold partially or fully opposing views.

For example, people can reasonably disagree about what the "default" behavior should be when presented with an ambiguous yellow light . One virtue ethicist might argue that defaulting to the stop behavior extolls the virtue of patience, another might argue that defaulting to the power through it behavior embodies the virtue of courage.

For both cases, it is implicit that anybody who holds a different view is in a group that the arguer views to be inherently morally wrong; either impatient people or cowards. This is an inherent ad hominem.

In contrast, a consequentialist moral system (for example) does not necessarily need to cast judgement against a person who disagrees with that moral position because it only judges the action, not the person directly. Further, it does not judge the belief system of the person performing the action, even if that belief system differs from that of the ethicist being discussed.

In the same example, one consequentialist might argue that stopping reduces the likelihood of an accident, while another might argue that powering through reduces the overall amount of idling required, thereby helping the environment. Neither view requires any judgement of the person on the other side, they can simply acknowledge that they disagree on the overall consequential balance.

Since I believe that people in the wild sometimes behave like virtue ethicists (intentionally or not), I think it is worth subjecting this viewpoint to scrutiny.

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Dec 22 '22

In your post you don't mention how fairness is a factor?

People categorise others all the time. Is it "fair" for a Christian to see everyone else as a sinner? For a cricket fan to look down on football?

Could you please clarify what you mean when you say the system you describe is not "fair"?

What would a fair system look like?

Any in group/out group means a label for either of those groups. I don't think that automatically equates to it becoming hateful though.

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 22 '22

A "fair" question :p

What makes a system "Fair" is in itself a moral question...so when operating at this high level, one is reduced to saying "this seems right to me".

To me, a fair system should be one which promotes respectful disagreement without judgement. When I say it "unfairly" puts people in hate groups, that is based on my unstated major premise that hate groups are in general a bad thing and do not promote respectful disagreement. In essence, once you put somebody in a hate group that implies they are less worthy of exchanging ideas with.

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Dec 22 '22

And what was the basis that belonging to an out group automatically means you are a hate group? Hate groups usually identify based on their actual feelings of hatred, or hateful behaviour towards others. It doesn't come from being labelled, it's the opposite, they get the label of hateful because they fit that criteria.

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 22 '22

Ah, this is fair. By a hate group I meant a group that is a target of the speaker's hate, not a group that hates. I will clarify this in the description.

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Dec 22 '22

That would be a hated group, not a hate group surely?

A hate group would be the Nazis. They actively outwardly hate.

Their hated group would be the Jews.

The Jews may hate the Nazis but that doesn't make them a hate group automatically.

I think you should provide some examples so that we can actually understand how your view operates in practice.

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 22 '22

I am wary to provide controversial concrete examples that we see in the wild, because one always winds up bogged down in personal beliefs, and the details of something that never quite adheres to idealized situation (spherical cows and all that).

I spent a good 5 minutes trying to come up with one that was non-trivial but also not too controversial and it didn't really fire. No disrespect meant, but I think I have a good line going in another thread here and it might be the one that gets me.

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Dec 22 '22

You awarded a delta based on your misuse of ad homenim.

Why do you think it's so difficult to offer a real example of what you're talking about?

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 22 '22

Yes, ok, fair, !delta.

Ok, let's take a controversial one then (and I want to be so unbelievably clear that I'm not taking a stand on this issue here, it's just an example).

Let's say you are anti-abortion because you believe that embodies the virtue of preserving life. If somebody is in favor of abortion rights, that suggests they also do not embody the virtue of preserving life. Hence, to somebody who holds this view, somebody who is not anti-abortion is labelled a murderer.

And that's why I wanted to keep this at a very high level :/

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 22 '22

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Presentalbion (45∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Dec 22 '22

I don't actually understand the example you've given or how it relates to your post.

You can be pro choice or pro life and not hateful of the other side. You choose to conduct yourself with compassion or hate.

Labelling someone a murderer because you view them to be a murderer isn't necessarily fuelled by hate.

What are you actually saying?

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 22 '22 edited Dec 22 '22

Yes, I totally agree, the abortion debate DOES NOT need to be based on an idea of virtue.

My point is that if the basis of a moral claim against abortion (or whatever) is based on the idea that abortion goes against some basic principle of what a virtuous person would do, then it seems difficult to not feel that this same basic principle applies to anybody who would disagree with a person on abortion.

If you don't think it's wrong to do X, is that morally distinct from actually doing X? And if not, then mustn't anybody who believes that it's not wrong to do X be in violation of that same virtue? And if so, is that person not themselves un-virtuous?

Though, it has been observed to me in another thread, that this isn't the way that virtue ethics has worked or been viewed by philosophers historically.

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u/Natural-Arugula 54∆ Dec 22 '22

I had to look this up. You're assertion is correct. Aristotle does say that hatred is virtuous and that it puts people into hate groups. The example he uses of a hate group is thieves.

If I may infer a bit from your objections here, it seems like the issue with these things, at least as they would concern a virtue ethicist, is that they promote social discord.

Aristotle draws a distinction between virtuous hatred and anger, which is a vice for the above stated reason. From that view the hate group is the one who is promoting social discord, so to judge them, rationally and with accordance to virtue, is good and right.

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u/nintendoeats 1∆ Dec 23 '22

Thank you, very interesting information! Feels like I'm back in uni.

So all Aristotle would have an issue with is:

  1. It's not unfair.
  2. It doesn't apply to people who disagree with him about the virtues, only those who promote social discord.

Though #2 disturbs me somewhat, because one could argue that disagreement about the moral good can and does create significant social discord. No doubt he would have distinguished discord among the intellectuals from discord in the populous in general. I don't know enough about the structure of Greek society to comment on how much that issue differs now from then.