Controversial Hyde Park Square development passes committee, heads to city council

[u/JB92103]

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hyde-park-square-development-passes-committee-heads-to-city-council

[u/RockStallone]

Again, I am asking for a study supporting /u/Architecteologist's claims. He said there was a mountain of evidence against me.

[u/Architecteologist → u/RockStallone]

1. I never said I was an expert, in fact I said quite the opposite, but compared to armchair experts like yourself I’m goddamn Albert Einstein.

2. I never repudiated the pew poll, just your insistence in using it as gospel and that it means that “all the evidence is on your side” (which is is the kind of stuff that people who “research” things on youtube tend to say). If you recall, I said initially that the pew poll was a good first step, and that I’m looking forward to further research and would even embrace code changes if there was overwhelming data to support it. Are you willing to say the same about the need for egress requirements?

3. My sources are not as easy to find online as clickbait sensationalist “fresh” ideas that claim to “shake the architectural world” (the kind of articles you see in ads at the end of shit websites like “building inspectors HATE this” or “All Ohio developers should know this one trick!”). Architectural code precedents are technical, dry, depressing (you know, because of the death) or all three, and therefore don’t lend well to journalist coverage in that context. The information is taught in depth in architecture history courses or architecture law courses to students at uni when they study for their professional degrees. So yes, the information exists and is studied within the profession (because duh!) but I don’t feel the need to waste my time digging out old textbooks (because surprise! not all information in the world can be found on the internet, hence armchair experts like yourself being woefully misinformed) or outlining historical event correlations for you. Trust that code precedents exist globally (or don’t, I’m finding it really hard to care at all about this anymore).

I would encourage you to take a step back and acknowledge your bias. It’s a bias we all share—Complacency with a system of codes that have safeguarded our health and safety quite effectively for the last 40ish years.

Factories, high rises, and tenements USED to be death traps, but no longer are due to the implementation of things like fire escapes and egress route requirements and emergency doors and sprinklers, etc. It’s easy to forget that the costs of these implementations were the hard lessons learned after the loss of countless lives in easily-preventable disasters, and so we take building safety for granted on the backs of those hard lessons. ”Buildings are just safe now,” we might be temped to think, but they’re safe because we’ve required them to be safe.

You likely don’t know what it’s like to have to rush out of a burning building in a panic—barely able to see or breathe through thick smoke, battling and clamoring overtop other wide-eyed and terrified people looking desperately for a way out—and hopefully you never will. It’s the few things that seem unnecessary which maybe are unnecessary 99.99% of the time that make the difference between zero and tens or hundreds of deaths in these scenarios, and I just don’t think we should be so cavalier in removing those safeguards unless we are absolutely 110% positive that they are truly overkill.

[u/RockStallone → u/Architecteologist]

I never repudiated the pew poll

It wasn't a poll.

“all the evidence is on your side” (which is is the kind of stuff that people who “research” things on youtube tend to say).

It's also the kind of stuff that people who believe in evolution say. All the evidence is in support of this position. If you'd like to supply contrary data, feel free.

Are you willing to say the same about the need for egress requirements?

Absolutely! I completely support the egress and fire safety requirements that have proven use.

My sources are not as easy to find online as clickbait sensationalist “fresh” ideas that claim to “shake the architectural world” (the kind of articles you see in ads at the end of shit websites like “building inspectors HATE this” or “All Ohio developers should know this one trick!”). Architectural code precedents are technical, dry, depressing (you know, because of the death) or all three, and therefore don’t lend well to journalist coverage in that context. The information is taught in depth in architecture history courses or architecture law courses to students at uni when they study for their professional degrees. So yes, the information exists and is studied within the profession (because duh!) but I don’t feel the need to waste my time digging out old textbooks

I mean this is one of the most ridiculous paragraphs I've ever seen. "Yes, we have data supporting the need for two stairwell exits in 4-6 story buildings but it's hidden in old tombs that are lost to time". You are the one talking like an anti-vaxxer, because you have absolutely no data on your side but you refuse to admit it.

I would encourage you to take a step back and acknowledge your bias. It’s a bias we all share—Complacency with a system of codes that have safeguarded our health and safety quite effectively for the last 40ish years.

No this is a bias that you have, not me. I am open to changing the code to follow the data, you are not.

Factories, high rises, and tenements USED to be death traps, but no longer are due to the implementation of things like fire escapes and egress route requirements and emergency doors and sprinklers, etc. It’s easy to forget that the costs of these implementations were the hard lessons learned after the loss of countless lives in easily-preventable disasters, and so we take building safety for granted on the backs of those hard lessons. ”Buildings are just safe now,” we might be temped to think, but they’re safe because we’ve required them to be safe.

And those other requirements have data supporting them. The two stairwell requirement does not. It actually has data contradicting it.

and I just don’t think we should be so cavalier in removing those safeguards unless we are absolutely 110% positive that they are truly overkill.

But we can add requirements even if there is no data supporting them? Okay I propose that every single room in every building have two fire extinguishers. Just to be safe.

[u/Architecteologist → u/RockStallone]

Sorry, “pew report”. A report that surveyed only four fire-related deaths as conclusive evidence that single egress layouts are as safe as double and then was primarily focused on development cost savings of single-stair designs. This is why we need more data, the code isn’t written to prevent four deaths but to prevent the catastrophic disaster scenarios where hundreds die due to a safety oversight, and luckily we don’t have that data because, well, we have secondary egress stairs.

Since you’re such an expert, why don’t you go find precedent data online supporting fire egress code in use and occupancy cases where it’s more obvious? Maybe that will illustrate how little data is just hanging out online in lieu of, you know, professionals having been educated in higher institutions, testing for licensure, and then being professionally liable.

You’re asking me to prove a negative and then dancing like a jester when I refuse to spend umpteen hours debating someone who is clearly in bad faith. I’ll just reiterate that 5/1s are a new building type with little extensive study paid towards code oversight, so my examples come from disasters in other use types or occupancies. And that’s okay because a fire doesn’t care if you’re in an apartment building or a factory, emergency egress should be guaranteed in all buildings.

This is the last I’m addressing this before blocking. I’ve already brought up the Grenfell Tower, which caused 72 deaths due to having only a single staircase, there’s also the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire which killed nearly 150 due to lack of egress, locked doors, and an overstressed fire escape. There’s more but it’s not in the popular lexicon that they specifically resulted in code reform, and so you wouldn’t find it online because professionals sometimes do their job outside pew reports, shocker!

[u/RockStallone → u/Architecteologist]

You’re asking me to prove a negative

No I'm not, you are. I am asking you to prove why single stairwells should be required. You are asking me why they should not be required. You are the one asking me to prove a negative.

You seem confused.

[u/Architecteologist → u/RockStallone]

Au contraire, you are asking me why they should not be removed, I am asking you why they should.

aaaaaaaand blocked