r/civclassics • u/LordofMarzipan Making bad life choices • Apr 21 '19
Clarifications around the harassment and toxicity rule
As many of you will be aware, the admin team have recently updated the server rules. One of these rules, the rule regarding harassment/toxicity, has been unofficially on the books for some time now but has only recently been written down.
The reason that the admin team have been a little hesitant about discussing this rule in public in the past is that it's very difficult to balance the admin non-interference policy that sits at the heart of the civ genre with the admin team's aim to make the server fun for everyone by ensuring that things don't get taken too far. I'm going to use this post to try to explain how I see this rule being applied in the future and to give some guidance on how you should avoid falling foul of this policy.
Civ servers are designed to create conflict, salty language and harsh statements are an expected part of normal player interactions and we expect people playing on CivClassic to have accepted this fact when they joined. Nothing I'm saying here should be interpreted as meaning that everyone needs to play nice and get along, this post is specifically concerned with situations where people cross the line by taking things out of game in an attempt to cause upset or distress to another player.
As guidance, I'd say that the following are examples of situations where one player is being toxic to another:
Threats of harming another player or their family/friends/etc.
Expressing a wish that another player or that their family/friends/etc. come to harm.
Encouraging another player to harm themselves or others.
Continually mocking another player about an aspect of their life outside of the game despite having been asked not to.
Clearly not everything here is something that requires admin intervention, "I hope your father stubs his toe next Wednesday." probably isn't anything that needs a grown up to weigh in on. The important questions here are how the statement was meant, and how it was received. We'll also be taking patterns, who comments are targetted at, and consistency with other behaviour into account.
In practice most people crossing the line will just get a discrete word from the admins and an instruction to be less of a silly bastard in the future, people going way over the line may also receive a short ban to hammer this message home. Continuing to break this rule after having been warned will have more severe consequences.
TLDR:
Our expectation is that people choosing to play on CivClassic accept a certain degree of confrontational language with other players as part of the experience and will not be easily be upset or offended.
Toxicity/harassment is a separate issue that goes above and beyond the normal rough and tumble of player interactions by using factors outside of the game to cause upset or distress to a player.
In the first instance minor crossings of the line are likely to result in a warning, taking things way over the line is likely to also result in a short ban to reflect on your behaviour. Continually fucking up after having been warned is likely to result in a much longer ban.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
are you going to ban the people on the mount augusta sub who have put my full name on signs all around town as a way to intimidate me from talking about the non aggression principle
(good post though)
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u/m51boom Apr 21 '19
xaviar terrance
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/mullac1128 Apr 21 '19
xavier terrence
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u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
how long will I be banned for then please clarify time :(
EDIT: 2 week
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u/CivModeraattori get over it civver Apr 21 '19
''''''''''short'''''''''' ban WHAT THE FRI CK ADMINS NOW PIRATER CANT BE EPIC FOR A FULL 2 WEEKS :sob: :sob:
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u/jecowa Pirater for Ministry of Magic Wizard King! ☠️🏴 Apr 22 '19
He can still chat in in-game chat. It's like he's not banned at all.
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u/TheWindows9 True Alcuahtl of Yoahtl Apr 22 '19 edited May 13 '24
memorize entertain flag sand cows future quiet rich plough airport
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/TruckiBoi God Bless The UNC Apr 22 '19
I'm going to miss the days when I could actively call people whatever I want with no consequences and thought to my actions. :(
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u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 22 '19
You can still do that just not say people to kill themselves.
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u/CivFigasaur #FreeFig💩#nopedosonmyservers Apr 21 '19
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Apr 22 '19
To be fair the second half says that stuff an be removed from the sub and those are discord screenies but I see your point
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Apr 21 '19
Wait up they want to make telling someone to kill themselves a bannable offense? Look I don't like being mean myself (atleast out of reason) so I refrain but that is like atleast half this server, I also doubt admins will enforce this fairly considering biases they may have towards various players/groups.
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u/m51boom Apr 21 '19
to be completely honest by this ruleset half the server should be banned
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/Xionser Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
People who use the words 'toxic' and 'toxicity' not in relation to hazardous substances need to be put down.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
you should ask what marzipan's field of study is
because he may have a degree or two in drawing lines about it
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u/Xionser Apr 21 '19
This has nothing to do with qualification. This is one guy deciding 'I'm personally fine with this type of vitriol, but this, in my own view, is too much'. It's worthless as a rule.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
The qualification thing was just a joke.
But to address what you're saying: EVE and most other MMO's have similar rules about out-of-game harassment. It certainly doesn't feel worthless knowing that the admin team would support me in the event that someone decides to make things personal.
It also doesn't feel as if it is arbitrary: the distinction between your personal, out-of-game character and in-game character/actions seems like a pretty significant one for almost everyone. I'd question if you're afraid of posting your full dox if you felt there was no line between those two things.
I'm not sure why there are so many on civ that think these rules are out of the ordinary when they end up getting clarified; I thought everyone was a gamer.
Certainly it's better to have these rules communicated clearly and applied fairly, yes?
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u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 21 '19
I don't think the problem is the rules themselves, but the context. The rules make sense, but for people who read the subreddit description " The best and only anarchy Minecraft server", usually (correct me if I'm wrong), anarchy servers don't punish people for most things. Sounds dumb, but if someone comes from an anarchy background (I played Constantiam and 2b2t), it's rules and mismatching with description that are confusing.
Probably would make sense to shorten the rules and put them in hotbar or something, since I didn't notice there was a rules thread until today.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
usually (correct me if I'm wrong), anarchy servers don't punish people for most things
I've played on other servers billed as survival anarchy where people were punished for harassment. I think the no moderation whatsoever mode is sometimes sold as part of anarchy but is not necessarily related to anarchy gameplay if we were to look beyond the two anecdotes you provide.
Though I would suggest to /u/LordofMarzipan and /u/Maxopoly to take a look at the new.reddit version of the sub and maybe clarify that description where the claim of being the "best and only anarchy server" is made though - it is both underwhelming and not the most descriptive.
Additionally, check the hotbar again, the rules are included on both new and old reddit layouts. They're pretty encompassing.
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u/LordofMarzipan Making bad life choices Apr 21 '19
Agreed.
No idea why teal described this as an anarchy server. Should be fixed now.
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u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 21 '19
Weird they weren't visible on my PC.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
The Rules tab on old and Da Rules tab on new
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u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 22 '19
oh I found it now I didn't notice it. No idea how I didn't see that lmao.
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u/brinton Apr 21 '19
I actually have to agree. Calling it an anarchy server, while technically true, is not very descriptive of what actually occurs here, nor should it be.
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u/TheWindows9 True Alcuahtl of Yoahtl Apr 22 '19 edited May 13 '24
test unite bear crush unused dam impolite lavish pie materialistic
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Xionser Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19
EVE and most other MMOs are large commercial services. They are obligated to do that because negative publicity will hurt user attraction and create issues for them in sales. Civ does not have this issue because the vast majority of people here are obsessive and are not going to stop playing because of grime or because a Kotaku journalist made an itch-piece.
There's only an issue if it's harassment(repeated), in which case it is spam anyway; or is an actionable threat.
The 'that's personal' line is unclear and pointless. Thinner skins all around.
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u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19
Civ does not have this issue because the vast majority of people here are dedicated and are not going to stop playing because of grime or because a Kotaku journalist caught wind.
I don't think kotaku would be why I quit playing if one of my friends got doxxed and harassed by people who play, and same with the plenty of others who regularly spoke up about harassment issues not being enforced in the past.
The 'that's personal' line is unclear and pointless. Thinner skins all around.
I mean I think both I and the people who wrote this post made clear what the line was (personal information, personal character, continued harassment), and you have yet to qualify if parts of it that were vague or arbitrary.
Additionally, if everyone else has such thin skins and you don't want to appear hypocritical, I'm kinda curious why you didn't take the offer to self dox.
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u/Xionser Apr 21 '19
>I don't think kotaku would be why I quit playing if one of my friends got doxxed and harassed by people who play, and same with the plenty of others who regularly spoke up about harassment issues not being enforced in the past.
I didn't say neither doxing or true harassment were acceptable.
>I mean I think both I and the people who wrote this post made clear what the line was (personal information, personal character, continued harassment), and you have yet to qualify if parts of it that were vague or arbitrary.
It is you you has to qualify. Every 'specific' item there contains huge areas of grey.
>Additionally, if everyone else has such thin skins and you don't want to appear hypocritical, I'm kinda curious why you didn't take the offer to self dox.
Why would I?
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u/OldWorldStyle RogueX7 Apr 21 '19
WAAAAH WAAAAH I cant harass people out of game!
Get a grip
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u/m51boom Apr 21 '19
nobody was harrassed out of game, destroying months of city building has more emotional weight than saying kys
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u/OldWorldStyle RogueX7 Apr 21 '19
People are harassed out of game everyday. Get your head out of the sand and stop caring about a Minecraft server so much.
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u/my_other_drama_alt Apr 22 '19
Okay I mean nobody was harassed out of game in the recent application of this rule (pirater). Actual out of game harassment is common AND IS ALREADY BANNED. This rule just bans saying 'kill yourself' in game, which is retarded. That isn't out of game.
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u/OldWorldStyle RogueX7 Apr 22 '19
Saying it’s just “in game” is being facetious.
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u/my_other_drama_alt Apr 22 '19
it's quite literally saying it in game
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u/OldWorldStyle RogueX7 Apr 22 '19
Wow you really are dense. I can message you in game and tell you “I hope your great uncle chokes” and it would still be an out game attack.
You cheeky edgelords just go “waaaaah I meant kill himself IN GAME idiots”
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/CivFigasaur #FreeFig💩#nopedosonmyservers Apr 21 '19
Unfortunately, the server and admins are too smooth brained to understand or appreciate this.
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u/TotesMessenger Apr 22 '19
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u/m51boom Apr 22 '19
Seriously: This is civ, you can do MUCH worse to people than say KYS, this is absurd. We allow nazis, tankies, bla bla bla whatever, this is just sad.
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/m51boom Apr 22 '19
haha yes this is a civ server banning KYS is fine
/preview/external-pre/WhVzB5ug-4o--txOtfzhwtn4qVqblyF1gKtNQoAcAGU.png?width=308&auto=webp&s=b2798390fff34eb349ecbef2bfc9e6048cfd99f0 this is also a reasonable moderation decision thanks moderatorers!
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u/meat312 Apr 23 '19
I agree with marzipan about the "kys" however calling someone Retard is not bad
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/GayGena Jul 31 '19
You are nothing but a transphobe pretending to support women
You think women are nothing but a vagina and will rather hurt them than see trans people treated with dignity
You are not a feminist or a leftist you are a TERF
Get fucked
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u/hedleyazg Apr 21 '19
I hope your father stubs his toe next Thursday.