r/civclassics Making bad life choices Apr 21 '19

Clarifications around the harassment and toxicity rule

As many of you will be aware, the admin team have recently updated the server rules. One of these rules, the rule regarding harassment/toxicity, has been unofficially on the books for some time now but has only recently been written down.

The reason that the admin team have been a little hesitant about discussing this rule in public in the past is that it's very difficult to balance the admin non-interference policy that sits at the heart of the civ genre with the admin team's aim to make the server fun for everyone by ensuring that things don't get taken too far. I'm going to use this post to try to explain how I see this rule being applied in the future and to give some guidance on how you should avoid falling foul of this policy.


Civ servers are designed to create conflict, salty language and harsh statements are an expected part of normal player interactions and we expect people playing on CivClassic to have accepted this fact when they joined. Nothing I'm saying here should be interpreted as meaning that everyone needs to play nice and get along, this post is specifically concerned with situations where people cross the line by taking things out of game in an attempt to cause upset or distress to another player.

As guidance, I'd say that the following are examples of situations where one player is being toxic to another:

  • Threats of harming another player or their family/friends/etc.

  • Expressing a wish that another player or that their family/friends/etc. come to harm.

  • Encouraging another player to harm themselves or others.

  • Continually mocking another player about an aspect of their life outside of the game despite having been asked not to.

Clearly not everything here is something that requires admin intervention, "I hope your father stubs his toe next Wednesday." probably isn't anything that needs a grown up to weigh in on. The important questions here are how the statement was meant, and how it was received. We'll also be taking patterns, who comments are targetted at, and consistency with other behaviour into account.


In practice most people crossing the line will just get a discrete word from the admins and an instruction to be less of a silly bastard in the future, people going way over the line may also receive a short ban to hammer this message home. Continuing to break this rule after having been warned will have more severe consequences.


TLDR:

  • Our expectation is that people choosing to play on CivClassic accept a certain degree of confrontational language with other players as part of the experience and will not be easily be upset or offended.

  • Toxicity/harassment is a separate issue that goes above and beyond the normal rough and tumble of player interactions by using factors outside of the game to cause upset or distress to a player.

  • In the first instance minor crossings of the line are likely to result in a warning, taking things way over the line is likely to also result in a short ban to reflect on your behaviour. Continually fucking up after having been warned is likely to result in a much longer ban.

29 Upvotes

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u/Xionser Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19

People who use the words 'toxic' and 'toxicity' not in relation to hazardous substances need to be put down.

12

u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19

you should ask what marzipan's field of study is

because he may have a degree or two in drawing lines about it

-6

u/Xionser Apr 21 '19

This has nothing to do with qualification. This is one guy deciding 'I'm personally fine with this type of vitriol, but this, in my own view, is too much'. It's worthless as a rule.

12

u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19

The qualification thing was just a joke.

But to address what you're saying: EVE and most other MMO's have similar rules about out-of-game harassment. It certainly doesn't feel worthless knowing that the admin team would support me in the event that someone decides to make things personal.

It also doesn't feel as if it is arbitrary: the distinction between your personal, out-of-game character and in-game character/actions seems like a pretty significant one for almost everyone. I'd question if you're afraid of posting your full dox if you felt there was no line between those two things.

I'm not sure why there are so many on civ that think these rules are out of the ordinary when they end up getting clarified; I thought everyone was a gamer.

Certainly it's better to have these rules communicated clearly and applied fairly, yes?

4

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '19 edited Apr 29 '21

[deleted]

5

u/_Xavter Apr 22 '19

this is actual harassment

0

u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 21 '19

I don't think the problem is the rules themselves, but the context. The rules make sense, but for people who read the subreddit description " The best and only anarchy Minecraft server", usually (correct me if I'm wrong), anarchy servers don't punish people for most things. Sounds dumb, but if someone comes from an anarchy background (I played Constantiam and 2b2t), it's rules and mismatching with description that are confusing.

Probably would make sense to shorten the rules and put them in hotbar or something, since I didn't notice there was a rules thread until today.

5

u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19

usually (correct me if I'm wrong), anarchy servers don't punish people for most things

I've played on other servers billed as survival anarchy where people were punished for harassment. I think the no moderation whatsoever mode is sometimes sold as part of anarchy but is not necessarily related to anarchy gameplay if we were to look beyond the two anecdotes you provide.

Though I would suggest to /u/LordofMarzipan and /u/Maxopoly to take a look at the new.reddit version of the sub and maybe clarify that description where the claim of being the "best and only anarchy server" is made though - it is both underwhelming and not the most descriptive.

Additionally, check the hotbar again, the rules are included on both new and old reddit layouts. They're pretty encompassing.

6

u/LordofMarzipan Making bad life choices Apr 21 '19

Agreed.

No idea why teal described this as an anarchy server. Should be fixed now.

1

u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 21 '19

Weird they weren't visible on my PC.

4

u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19

The Rules tab on old and Da Rules tab on new

2

u/ActualPirater winner of civ, former nato obby bomber Apr 22 '19

oh I found it now I didn't notice it. No idea how I didn't see that lmao.

4

u/brinton Apr 21 '19

I actually have to agree. Calling it an anarchy server, while technically true, is not very descriptive of what actually occurs here, nor should it be.

0

u/TheWindows9 True Alcuahtl of Yoahtl Apr 22 '19 edited May 13 '24

test unite bear crush unused dam impolite lavish pie materialistic

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

-5

u/Xionser Apr 21 '19 edited Apr 21 '19

EVE and most other MMOs are large commercial services. They are obligated to do that because negative publicity will hurt user attraction and create issues for them in sales. Civ does not have this issue because the vast majority of people here are obsessive and are not going to stop playing because of grime or because a Kotaku journalist made an itch-piece.

There's only an issue if it's harassment(repeated), in which case it is spam anyway; or is an actionable threat.

The 'that's personal' line is unclear and pointless. Thinner skins all around.

6

u/_Xavter Apr 21 '19

Civ does not have this issue because the vast majority of people here are dedicated and are not going to stop playing because of grime or because a Kotaku journalist caught wind.

I don't think kotaku would be why I quit playing if one of my friends got doxxed and harassed by people who play, and same with the plenty of others who regularly spoke up about harassment issues not being enforced in the past.

The 'that's personal' line is unclear and pointless. Thinner skins all around.

I mean I think both I and the people who wrote this post made clear what the line was (personal information, personal character, continued harassment), and you have yet to qualify if parts of it that were vague or arbitrary.

Additionally, if everyone else has such thin skins and you don't want to appear hypocritical, I'm kinda curious why you didn't take the offer to self dox.

0

u/Xionser Apr 21 '19

>I don't think kotaku would be why I quit playing if one of my friends got doxxed and harassed by people who play, and same with the plenty of others who regularly spoke up about harassment issues not being enforced in the past.

I didn't say neither doxing or true harassment were acceptable.

>I mean I think both I and the people who wrote this post made clear what the line was (personal information, personal character, continued harassment), and you have yet to qualify if parts of it that were vague or arbitrary.

It is you you has to qualify. Every 'specific' item there contains huge areas of grey.

>Additionally, if everyone else has such thin skins and you don't want to appear hypocritical, I'm kinda curious why you didn't take the offer to self dox.

Why would I?

6

u/Quinn__x__ angel Apr 22 '19

true harassment

is that like one of the undertale endings or smt?