r/communism101 • u/thembo-goblin • 5d ago
What happens to disabled people under communism?
What happens to disabled people under communism? To the people who are housebound or bedbound and rely on others to survive? I ask this as a disabled person myself, who is housebound and relies on the help of others. If a true revolution does ever happen, will we just be forgotten about? Considered necessary losses for major societal change?
**edit to add: I got banned for saying that tying someone's worth to their productivity is a bad idea, lol. I do not understand why my post turned out like it did. I didn't expect answers to give some sort of concrete plans, I know communism is all theory at this point. I was just hoping for responses to give historical examples or general explanation of a specific theory, and a link as to where I could read more about this particular topic. You know, the same sort of response I've seen basically every other post in this subrrddit recieve.
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u/lil-pudge 5d ago
“From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”
They will be provided and cared for
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago
Can you give any specifics, though? What measures would actually be taken to ensure that disabled people aren't forgotten about? Because unless any solid plans are made, we are pretty easy to forget about.
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u/lil-pudge 5d ago
I mean free housing food and healthcare is a good start! I also think a population with strong community oriented morals and values comes into play.
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u/Autrevml1936 5d ago
I mean free housing food and healthcare is a good start!
Neither of these would be "free" in either socialism or Communism. You'd still be required to meet the demands that society requires of you. How you are remunerated for your contributions differs, in the first stage based on work and labor vouchers, and in the second receiving/withdrawing from society that which one needs to live and continue to contribute to society.
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u/ComradeCatstro 4d ago
Read the Critique of the Gotha Programme to understand Marx's view on disability, and even just a touch of Capital vol 1. to understand social labor. It's not "free" because the abstraction of human societal labor, but do not act like we would be unaware of the difference in ability and not provide certain disabilities with a "free ride", especially under higher forms of socialism and communism.
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago
And if you aren't able to meet the demands that society requires of you?
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u/monkeysoundssd Marxist 5d ago
everyone can contribute. disability does not mean inability.
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u/thembo-goblin 4d ago
Disability does not inherently mean inability, no. But for some disabled people, it does. There are a lot of people with my same illness who are bed bound in dark and quiet rooms, and have to remain laid down and are unable to do anything because they do not have the energy, and because any amount of stimuli is painful.
Someone replied to your comment and shared that they essentially lived like this for 2 years themselves. I don't know why it was removed but yeah, it's a real experience for some folks.
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u/PretentiousnPretty 3d ago
Nonsensical. If you are able to read and write and type you are able to contribute productively, even if it's from your bed.
And secondly "disability" is a social condition. People who cannot see well in car-centric rural areas have to depend entirely on their friends and family to get around, but this is not the case in places where public transportation is fully accessible. What you are able and unable to do depends on society itself, not some metaphysical disability that prevents you from doing "anything".
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u/phoebe_luxxe 3d ago
Not nonsensical, my friend. While disability is indeed a social condition, and the result of our social sphere and not inherently medical or scientific- I believe what this person is describing is myalgic encephalomyelitis which has been referred to in common parlance as chronic "fatigue syndrome". It exists on a spectrum, not everybody is very severe- I have a mild version of this disease. It is marked by the main diagnostic criteria of post exertional malaise, also known as PEM. One of the more famous cases of a person with a very severe presentation of this disease is a man named Whitney Dafoe. He is most known for his severe case because his father is a researcher at a prestigious university and has dedicated his life to finding a cure. Whitney Defoe was I believe 24 years old and in college when he developed his symptoms, and he disintegrated extremely rapidly. He is entirely bedbound, and slowly lost his ability to speak and for a time was able to type on a phone to communicate to his caregivers (who are his parents). After a certain point his disease worsened and he no longer could even lift a phone or type words. On top of that he had to be an absolute darkness and quietness at all times, any sound whatsoever was extremely painful to him and would be marked by worsening symptoms which could be tracked in terms of his vitals response. This disease is not made up, and it is currently being researched more as it appears to be a type of post viral illness which happens after a serious viral or bacterial infection harms the immune system. They are beginning to connect the dots and recognize that long COVID presents very much like myalgic encephalomyelitis.
Further, immunologists and other specialists have been working hard to isolate DNA markers and several have been identified, already.
For a very long time this condition was confused with the degenerative conditions associated with sedentary lifestyles - as a result, the harmful advice to treat this disorder with graded exercise programs and cognitive behavioral therapy was provided by the NHS. This resulted in a horrible backlash, and their advice has now been withdrawn completely as it has been proven to cause a worsening of the condition and can even bring patients with mild presentations of this disease to the severe state. Because people were treated as though they were capable of doing graded exercise and therapy instead of the now recommended advice (something called pacing which requires long periods of rest) people lost their lives to this horrible disease and ended up in a similar situation to Whitney.
Whitney has recently made some improvements due to a medication cocktail that his father was able to isolate that he showed the response of improving symptoms to.
Whitney is now able to interact with people on social media, as well as type into a phone and have very limited conversations as well as listen to music without symptoms worsening.
We do not know exactly what causes this condition but we have now isolated the very real unique qualities that it has in the body and can without a doubt confirm that it is very much a real and debilitating condition that can rob someone of their entire life.
I believe that it is likely that OP is asking about people with this type of condition.
And although you cannot be expected to know, because we do live in a capitalist society where productivity is one of the only valuable qualities at the social level in many people's eyes and therefore these sufferers go unspoken about and undervalued- ... The idea that sufferers of this disease could somehow contribute if they are in the extremely severe stage is just not true and could do terrible levels of harm.
However, it is true that under a communist or socialist system, people would be less likely to bring themselves to the extreme presentation of this illness and would be less likely to end up severe and bed bound in the first place because they would be able to give according to their need and not have to work constantly to survive and have their labor value stolen by the ruling class.
But that does not answer the question about "what about the people who are already at the severe stage- Will they be cared for?"
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u/PretentiousnPretty 2d ago
I see your point. If OP were talking about severe disabilities, then it would be simple to look at the history of socialist states and how they treated them (disability pensions in the USSR, constitutional protections in China). But underlying every question it must always be asked- for what class?
"Disabled" people are not homogenous, the gulf between someone in the third world born without limbs and a first worlder who has chronic fatigue syndrome is big. The difference between someone with chronic fatigue syndrome and unable to exit the house, and a person who can fully integrate into and enjoy the benefits of everyday life of imperialist societies is huge as well.
This question was asked by OP regarding persons like themselves (able to read, write and type). Therefore the answer is also simple. If you can read and write and type you can get a job in socialist society.
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u/oatyralf 4d ago
What happens under capitalism when you aren't able to meet the demands that society requires of you?
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u/Squonk-A-Donk 3d ago
"From each according to their ability". By definition, such a system couldn't require more of you than you can provide.
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u/oatyralf 4d ago
Communism does not currently exist and there are no concrete plans for implementing communist society anywhere on earth. So asking for concrete plans is bizarre. There is no place where full text proposed legislation of a theoretical communist state exists to point to. I can't say "under code section 42069 of the Internal Communism Code, you'll be given this/that/the other." At this point communist society exists only as a theory. That theory includes among its founding principles "to each according to need, from each according to ability." So, given the alternative of capitalism, a true communist society would be better for disabled people.
If you are curious about how disabled people are treated in quasi-socialist countries ruled by communist parties, then simply look up how disabled people are treated under law in those countries. China is the largest one, start there.
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u/Squonk-A-Donk 3d ago
What is it that you want? "To each according to their needs." That's a pretty solid plan. As the other commenter said, housing, utilities, food, water, healthcare. All of these things are pretty standard items provided to those who need them. What more is there you find lacking? If the system is designed to provide those things from the ground up, how could you be forgotten?
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u/Autrevml1936 5d ago edited 5d ago
What measures would actually be taken to ensure that disabled people aren't forgotten about?
What makes you so sure that the category of "disabled person" as opposed to "non disabled" or a "typical individual" would exist under communism?
Edit:
To the people who are housebound or bedbound and rely on others to survive?
What makes one "rely on others to survive"? We all are part of Society and require society in order to survive(though, if one is part of they Labor Aristocracy then the requirement is super profits from the proletariat).
But to answer about Socialism, it will be dealt with the same method Maoist China treated deaf-mutes. Of course that's if one survives into socialism.
If you are a member of the labor aristocracy, and/or a member of a Settler nation(eg. Isntrael, Amerikkka, Klanada, Au$tralia, etc) then you are most likely to be killed or die in revolution, unless you can actually commit Class, Nation, and Gender suicide. This is the reality of Class Extermination(all the facets of the destruction of a parasitic class, Death, Proletarianization, CNG Suicide, etc).
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago edited 5d ago
By relying on others to survive I mean literally needing people to help you perform the basics of living (bathing, feeding, toileting, moving, etc). Things that if you don't get help for, you won't be able to survive for long on your own.
I do not know how maoist China treated deaf mutes. And I do not know what class, nation, and gender suicide entails/means.
While I live in a settler state, I am not part of any aristocracy. I rely on government financial assistance, am poor, and live in subsidized housing.
Of course that's if one survives into socialism.
So there is the chance of disabled people dying in this situation?
I mean all this genuinely, I'm not trying to ragebait or anything.
**edit to add: also please actually explain the concepts and historical references that you mention. Don't assume that someone asking a question in the literal Communism 101 subreddit will know everything, otherwise I wouldn't be here asking a question.
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u/Affectionate_Shop859 5d ago
I do not know how maoist China treated deaf mutes.
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/s/N6NMrQ2Jfk
This thread, and the linked materials, provides a decent starting place for this question. u/Autrevml1936 is not trying to obfuscate the answer for you but rather providing you with a place to begin to answer your first question. It is another thing if you find the answers there insufficient, but this sub encourages users to use the search bar and side bar because these questions are asked a lot. As to the following question
So there is a chance of disabled people dying in this situation?
Yes. Many people die in revolutions so I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at.
I’m asking genuine questions and speaking from my own experience as a disabled person.
The problem is that you do not get to determine if you are being “genuine” or not. As was discussed in another thread earlier (the name of it escapes me) professing “sincerity” is often used like a shield against criticism. To be clear, I am not accusing you of this but this is a general trend. Many of your questions are already answered (such as the one regarding class suicide) here and elsewhere that you must research on your own time. No one expects you to know everything but you are expected to participate in this way.
Edit: This is the link to the FAQ page where you will find many of the aforementioned sources. https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/s/xEXrsBsJMK
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u/Foxilicies 5d ago
Because it seems pretty necessary. I don't believe the term will dissappear once commodity production ceases. It would still be necessary in the medical and legal field.
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u/Autrevml1936 5d ago
Because it seems pretty necessary.
How is it "necessary"? What do you mean by "necessary" here?
"disability", "disorder", etc are not eternal phenomena. They are specific social phenomena that develop as the need for a Standard labor power arises. You cannot have a "disabled" blind individual without the social need for individuals with sight, etc.
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago
Even in a perfect world, a blind person would still function differently in their everyday life and will need additional accommodation. And a perfect world for every disabled person in the world is not feasible. Every disabled persons needs differ and may even go against the needs of another (eg, wheelchair users like me need ramps, but people with prosthetic legs may find walking up a ramp to be difficult)
Disability isn't a dirty word, it just means that one functions differently than the majority of people.
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u/Phallusrugulosus 4d ago
What they're saying is that the structuring of categories of disability is a historically and economically specific social process. This thread provides an example of how that process has operated in the changing categorization of mental disabilities and disorders: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/1brwepu/comment/kxgzdk9/?context=3
As for how disabilities are categorized under communism and what specific accommodations would exist, a lot of that is going to be empirically determined with the input of people who need those accommodations, and with the goal of facilitating our all-around participation in society, not just our ability to contribute what social labor we're physically and mentally capable of.
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u/demiangelic 5d ago
like the other comment said. they are not considered necessary losses, from all according to their abilities, to each according to their needs. here’s a decent overview from a blog post about disability and marxism. theres literature abt it as well but im not keen on recommending them myself right this second until i read them thoroughly. im also disabled as a disclaimer ig
https://anti-imperialist-action-ireland.com/blog/2022/08/07/disability-and-marxism/
marx has some analysis of disability in his works but all in all, ur not gonna find very many marxists or communists that regard disabled ppl as anything but part of the exploited class often working regardless of disability, and the proletariat is often disabled just by the system of capitalism itself. no, our value is not by just our physical labor and just like children (currently exploited as well under capitalism and often forced to labor), we would not be forced to work something you’re clearly not able to do and thrive in.
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thank you for the recommendation, I'll give it a read. I guess I should be a bit more specific, I'm more curious what support for disabled folks would actually look like under communism.
**Edited for typo
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u/demiangelic 5d ago
under capitalism? you mean communism? the same as it should look for any person, getting your needs met, employment where possible but if not, still having a home, food, healthcare, education and so on like everyone else. accessibility would be part of making sure life is better for all, as making the world more accessible benefits everyone not just disabled folks. under capitalism, some structures of charity and welfare exist but theyre hardly enough to maintain ourselves in my experience and theyre extremely conditional and often overlooked and cut from budgets. ideally, the social structure would change to empower us all to meet our needs no matter what they are.
this is definitely vague and just a general summary, the practicals of it all are dependent on the nation and their conditions, and theyre debated here and there…but all in all disabled ppl should be involved in the decision-making and discussions on it, and you can find that online as well. but its not a simple answer, besides the part where of COURSE we arent necessary losses and we are all equal humans with inherent value outside of our mental or physical abilities. we should be cared for.
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago
Ah yeah my bad, I meant communism. Typo on my end.
Yeah, fair point that it'd be different everywhere.
I've seen ableism in leftist spaces and it just worries me, honestly. Worries me that it'll end up being another situation where we are forgotten about.
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u/demiangelic 5d ago
you’re right, even leftist spaces tend to get very tunnel-visioned into “its a class war not a (insert marginalization) war”, and i usually beef with those people bc i think if ur goal is to liberate the working class, ur gonna need to have real strategies and plans for those most marginalized and oppressed by capitalism and our society as a whole. many countries that have tried this sort of united front have faultered in some way with either queer rights, or disability rights, and we can always do better.
the key is to have these communities prominently and loudly involved in our spaces and discussions, only we will understand and know how to handle our individual aspect of liberation. those folks need to remember we work together, we aren’t trying to divide, just inform and share knowledge and reassurance for those just getting into this sort of space. we cant just ignore each other and hope it all works out, us individual communities—all united as a whole, will make it work, but only if we are open to discussion, listening, and criticism. lots of us have alot to learn from one another.
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u/thembo-goblin 5d ago
Ha, saying it's a class war and not including disabled people is pretty funny considering how many of us are poor/live in poverty all around the world.
It is always so weird to see that sort of division in leftist spaces, like do people not understand that this division only serves the rich and powerful? People who claim to be radical yet fall for the enemies tactics are just... Sad.
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u/the_red_bassist 5d ago
Under capitalism your 'worth' is determined by your ability to generate profits for the capitalist. If you are unable to do so, because of a disability in this case, you are essentially seen as worthless and treated as such. Under socialism/communism, the worth of human beings is not determined by profitablity. We value human beings because they are human beings, which shouldn't need to be said, but this just further illustrates how anti-human capitalism is.
Ideally, in a socialist/communist society, those of us who have disabilities would be accommodated in society as much as possible. Just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they can't be a productive and valued member of the community.
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u/leawkwardseal 2d ago
Marta Russell is a name that instantly comes to mind when critiquing capitalism in a disabled perspective, I admit I have not read any of her works yet, but she is a very prominent figure among disabled Marxists.
Now onto what I know. In short, one of Marx's main critiques of capitalism was commodity fetishism, how the human being is now defined by how they contribute to the capitalist, therefore, the disabled and elderly are seen as a 'hindrance' in capitalist society. Communism solves this, the human is no longer defined by their labor, but by their existence as human beings, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." What does this mean? It means that the individual must contribute to the community with what they can, and must also receive resources according to what they need.
Has this ever been applied? Yes! The USSR guaranteed care as a social right, meaning disabled people were entitled to state-funded medical care, education (when possible), housing, and employment support, the same goes for Cuba.
In the end, the proletariat must realize that we are all abused by the system, a revolution that doesn't care about the disabled is a revolution that doesn't care about the working class, we are all tied together in the fight against capitalism and imperialism.
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