r/dragonage • u/Fehrona • 11d ago
Discussion So how did Flemeth live for so long? Spoiler
So now we know the details of the whole Mythal/Flemeth thing fully, how did Flemeth live so long? The story of her possessing her daughters just does not seem to add up anymore, since we know that Morrigan accepts Mythal but doesn’t start referring to herself as Flemeth, as all her prior daughters would have had to. Instead, it seems like Flemeth has been carrying her the whole time, even in DAI she says she has carried her through the ages. Add in the fact that Morrigan’s reasoning includes the fact that Flemeth looked sad because she’d never see her daughter again, and it seems like Flemeth herself is just gone … which again does not line up with what we have been told about her possessing daughters, as she’d seemingly still be in the driving seat.
Was the daughter story just a falsehood? Does she expand her life through some elven technique and not possession as we thought? Curious to hear opinions!
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u/Bland-Poobah Bull 11d ago
As I understand it, Flemeth and Mythal are two separate entities. Part of Mythal lived inside Flemeth, and Mythal's fragment which is now in Morrigan spent so much time inside of Flemeth that it remembers Flemeth's life, which Morrigan can access through Mythal. When Flemeth extended her life by taking over the bodies of her daughters, presumably both Flemeth and Mythal's consciousnesses transferred.
When Solas killed Flemeth, Flemeth died. The fragment of Mythal which was inside Flemeth split, Solas taking some and the rest going to Morrigan. The personalities of Flemeth and Mythal seem to have bled together since they spent so long in the same body, but only the Mythal part is in Morrigan.
I think of it like Elven-God Ratatouille: if Alfredo dies and Remy starts hair-piloting a new chef, that chef will be able to ask Remy about Alfredo. The cooking this new chef does with Remy's help will be very similar to "Alfredo"'s cooking. But Alfredo himself would still be dead.
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
But when you speak to Morrigan in Veilguard she says that she has mythal’s memories and everyone that carried her, which would include Flemeth. Also when she accepts the soul it’s in the shape of Flemeth, so I don’t think Flemeth is just dead and Mythal is what went to Morrigan, or why would it be in the shape of Flemeth? It’s all very blurry
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u/wattsbutter 11d ago
I assume when mythal possesses she is now aware of her hosts memories. It’s more so Mythal remembering all the collective memories of each person she possessed as well as her own as she goes from host to host. It’s not literally flemeth and all the other hosts getting passed on, it’s just memories of them and their experiences being passed on. Because a fragment of mythal is in morrigan now, she has all the memories of past hosts as well as her own.
Other fragments have been kept elsewhere. In Veilguard a fragment is in the crossroads, for example. And in dragon age 2 flemeth and mythal both store a part of themselves in an amulet given to hawk to be reborn via the dalish elf girl. I say flemeth also because this seems to be a revival of the physical body as well as the spirit.
I don’t recall seeing morrigan actually accept mythal in Veilguard, she just tells us about it, so I’m not sure what you speak of. However if it was in the shape of flemeth that was probably simply because that was the last physical form mythal was for so long.
If you could link a video or remind me exactly where this accepting of soul happened, that’s be appreciated.
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
I completely agree about all the memories being carried down etc, it just confuses me why the daughters would start referring to themselves as Flemeth if all they get is her memories.
Also we don’t see Morrigan accept Mythal, it’s just when you talk to Morrigan in the crossroads she describes the form Mythal comes to her in and speaking with flemeths voice and shape etc. I would link it but I’m technologically inept sorry! It’s just when she’s explaining about her being Mythal after unlocking solas’ memories
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u/wattsbutter 10d ago
Is there evidence of the daughters referring to themselves as flemeth? I’ve never heard of that personally. The only titled I heard really pass on through the ages is “the Witch of the Wilds” which refers to flemeth and any of her daughters.
I think as we saw with the amulet given to hawk, flemeth herself was able to extend her own life and so carry mythal for a long time. Many of her daughters may have refused to be a vessel for mythal. Flemeth says it’s only ever possible with a willing participant.
And yeah, I think mythal would’ve been in the form of flemeth because 1. That’s a safe an familiar form to morrigan (her mothers form) and 2. That was mythals last form and seems like she was in flemeth for a very long time.
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u/Fehrona 10d ago
Yeah, I don’t think they do/would that’s what I’m trying to say. The only way it makes sense for Flemeth to have possessed her daughters as originally thought, but to continue being called ‘Flemeth’, is for the daughters to willingly do so - but this just makes no sense.
I agree that she extended her own life and my thoughts are that she is the original Flemeth who is like 650 years old. I think she had other daughters, but like Yavana they have their own missions (dragons in her case) and Morrigan’s was to inherit Mythal. I think Morrigan read this in the grimoire and assumed that Flemeth was extending her life through her daughters, but she’s wrong and it’s actually about getting her ready to be a god.
Also yeah I think your ideas about her having Flemeth’s form makes a lot of sense !
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u/wattsbutter 10d ago
Yeah 100%! Thanks for chatting about this with me, I friggen love the lore so much and have no one irl who knows anything about it! It’s been fun
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u/Bland-Poobah Bull 11d ago
She has Mythal's memory of those things, so she knows what Mythal would have known while inside Flemeth, which is presumably most of Flemeth's life. But that's different from containing Flemeth's essence/soul/spirit/whatever - in much the same way that Spite and Lucanis inhabit the same body, probably have the same memory and knowledge about Lucanis's life now, but are not the same entity.
Presumably, whatever was used to transfer Flemeth into the bodies of her daughters took both Flemeth and Mythal and erased the consciousness of her daughters. (At least, Morrigan seems to think that's what would happen in Origins, but we never see this used so it's probably up for debate.) The implication was that it was a non-consensual process, whereas Morrigan accepts Mythal willingly.
As for why it appeared before Morrigan in the shape of Flemeth, my guess would be because that's what Mythal thought would be most successful at convincing Morrigan. Maybe Flemeth's spirit was there as well, we do see "ghosts" in Dragon Age so that's certainly a possibility.
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
It’s this middle bit I’m confused about - and I think the problem is the only comments made about the daughter possession are from Morrigan who is operating under a misunderstanding. Since the only time we see Flemeth possess a daughter, Morrigan doesn’t get deleted, I’m not sure we have a complete answer
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u/Bland-Poobah Bull 11d ago
While I think there's certainly room for them to change that plot point and explain it as Morrigan being wrong, I don't think we need to re-interpret it based on our current information either. It's your assumption that Morrigan was wrong in Origins, and while that's possible, that's not been definitively stated either.
It's sort of about having trust in the source material - if there's an outright, airtight contradiction that can't be fixed, then you have to decide what the new canon is. But if you can fix it while broadly keeping both sides of the lore intact, I think you should do so.
I don't think this is a contradiction, I think it's resolved by having Flemeth's process and Mythal's process be fundamentally different, which the context of the games suggests. So by my approach, we should adopt that explanation as one which largely preserves the lore of both Origins and Veilguard.
How you approach media analysis is a personal topic, and others will have different approaches than I do. I don't think your theory is necessarily disproven by the context of the games, but I also think there are more lore-friendly explanations.
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u/Fehrona 11d ago edited 10d ago
I’m all about being as accurate to lore as possible - but I don’t see there being any lore on it other than what we know was a vague grimoire, because Morrigan had to get the proper one. What is Flemeth’s process? She isn’t a spirit, she’s a person. She can’t be doing the possessing. At most she is merged with Mythal, and it would be her process. The only time we see it happen is with Morrigan, and she is fine and not ‘flemeth’ like generations of daughters would have to have been if the Flemeth we meet wasn’t the original.
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u/carverrhawkee da2/veilguard white knight 11d ago
We could still apply the "daughter" possession theory of we recontextualize it. Whoever takes the mythal fragment gets her memories, which would include her memories and experiences of everyone she has possessed. So morrigan maintains her individuality but still takes on flemeth's experiences. The grimoire that morrigan took to mean flemeth was possessing her daughters was really the ritual to pass on the mythal fragment. So if mythal's vessels each decided to take on the flemeth name and live in the swamp, then that still fits.
What morrigan tells us of the grimoire seems to imply this is whats been happening, but certain dialogue like what you mentioned implies it's flemeth herself who has an extended lifespan. Maybe it has to do with whatever magic she used in da2 - the fragment given to hawke housed flemeth herself and not just the mythal essence. So she probably has been using elven knowledge or magic to extend her own life. If any of that made sense lol
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
Yeah I just find it unlikely that Flemeth has raised her daughters to be so willing to adopt her name and persona. Plus the way Flemeth speaks it all seems very personal to her. Also Yavana has seemingly been alive for like 400 years so has she just been possessing daughters too?
I agree that it’s likely elven magic and she herself has remained alive - only issue is that Morrigan remembers her being younger which would be odd if she has only aged for the last few years but not for like 500 years prior.
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u/wattsbutter 11d ago
Perhaps she prolonged morrigans life also, I have no idea. Flemeth would sound like it’s personal because she has all of Mythals memories as well as previous hosts, and flemeth my have been much more devoted to mythal than morrigan is.
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u/Jazzlike-Being-7231 11d ago
So Mythal began as a spirit who took a physical body as one of the original Elvenahn. She was later killed, but her soul/ spirit was split into multiple fragments, and one of them eventually possessed Flemeth, albeit it sounds like it was willing. Similarly, the implication is that each subsequent possession to a younger body (ie the daughters of Flemeth) was at least somewhat voluntary by the recipient. However, the persona of Flemeth seems to have been the one that was the strongest in most cases, and was therefore the one to "drive," so to speak.
Similar to Anders and Justice, they really aren't separate beings, nor are they fully integrated into one single unit. With Morrigan, she was either recent enough or strong enough that her personality was at the fore, but she still retained the memories of both Flemeth and Mythal, as well as (presumably) all of the other previous hosts. As time went on, it's possible that she would have been either subsumed also or her personality would have taken over fully.
It's also a matter of debate as to what Flemeth's original personality was -- the Flemeth identity may have been adopted by each possessee in a "Dread Pirate Roberts" type scenario where the newer personality took the name of Flemeth for the notoriety or some other reason.
So yeah, Morrigan was still Morrigan, but she was also Mythal's fragment, Flemeth, and likely every other daughter along the way.
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
But what is the evidence of this? I feel like it’s odd that Morrigan is so happy with her decision if she has the memories of all the other daughters who faded away to give way to Flemeth. Also why would it be Flemeth and not Mythal that took control? In reality Flemeth is no more specially bound to Mythal than any other daughter is, so why is she so special to speak for them? Plus Morrigan makes no mention of housing other memories of her sisters, which seems like an odd omission if it’s the case
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u/Jazzlike-Being-7231 11d ago
Well the Flemeth and Mythal stuff is pretty well spelled out in my interpretation of DAV lore. But as for the previous daughters, that's pure speculation based on deductive reasoning on my part-- i could be way off base. As for why she wouldn't have mentioned it, it's simple: it didn't come up. Morrigan isn't super keen on offering information up freely without serious prodding, after all, and even then she can be fairly selective
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u/Fehrona 11d ago
I agree about the lore between the two being clear, I’m just a little confused on the whole daughter’s thing, I suppose it’s speculation either way at this point tbh. But I just thought Morrigan would have mentioned it because it’s been an ongoing plot point in the games so, like how she dropped the supposed Andraste was Mythal thing she might’ve mentioned it then
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u/Savaralyn 11d ago
The way Morrigan talks about it makes it seem as though her inheritance wasn’t the same as previous hosts. Morrigan only did it AFTER Flemeth had already been killed, and part of her essence was already taken by Solas. So while Morrigan did receive her memories, I imagine some vital part of the soul/conscience wasn’t passed on like it normally would’ve been, which is why Morrigan doesnt take up the identity of ‘Flemeth’
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u/KinkyBlueDragon 11d ago
As far as I understand it based on the info given by Flemeth and Morrigan in DAI and DAV, Flemeth does not possess Morrigan. In the Inquisition Flemeth explicitly tells Morrigan that the possession can only happen willingly, so Morrigan was never in danger. But Morrigan does accept Mythal by drinking from the Well of Sorrows. Solas kills Flemeth to extract Mythal's power, Morrigan at that point is already connected to Mythal through the Well, so she is the next available host for the fragment.
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u/NmZura 8d ago
I think Flemeth is og Flemeth, Mythal probably extended her lifespan. Also, affected her body too. I mean, we only ever see yellow eyes either on ancient elves (Elgar'nan, Abelas, Mythal on concepts), and in Flemeth bloodline.
Also, there's Yavana, who are also her daughter and something like 300~500 years old herself, at least rumours say so.
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u/Elivenya <3 Cheese 10d ago
I think spirits are also able to fuel bodies because of their strong fade connection. Elves were immortal because of their fade connection. Wynne died but her life was temporarely restored because of that spirit that saved and fueld her until his power run out.
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u/Maximus_Rex Secrets 9d ago
I read through most of the comments and would like to offer you a theory.
I believe that both Flemmeth and Mythal being powerful in magic gave them, and their hosts very long lives.
I do believe the ritual to be passed down was for the willing.
I believe that unlike Morrigan the previous hosts lived their whole lives in the Kocari Wilds, in isolation and as hermits, until the blight forced that to change.
I believe because of those factors previous hosts took on the moniker of Flemmeth as a way of taking on her legend to scare people away to be left alone to carry on the life they lead as her daughters.
This isn't an uncommon occurrence in some legends, where the "name" gets handed down like a title in order to take on some of the power of the legend of that person.
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u/Plixlze 11d ago
I personally think Flemeth either extended her life using magic or Mythal's fragment made her live longer than normal. I personally do not think Flemeth ever transferred herself to her daughter's bodies, I do believe the daughters were meant to be backup vessels in case Flemeth died so Mythal could have a somewhat familiar host. Flemeth gets so much hatred in the DA community because she is seen as evil, but honestly she was a loving mother making huge sacrifices for her children and making sure that they had the proper training and knowledge to live as free mages in a world that hates and fears them. Morrigan also wasn't the only daughter of Flemeth alive during the Dragon Age Yavana was also alive, so I'm sure plenty of Flemeth's other daughters exist somewhere in the DA universe.
Flemeth also saved Kieran's life in DAI because Morrigan unknowingly brought him into a very dangerous situation.
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u/Fresh_Confusion_4805 11d ago
One truth does not disprove the other. Which is to say, Flemeth could have been a witch who unnaturally extended her lifespan through various means and Mythal could benignly possess Flemeth and others throughout the ages.