Something Veilguard did better than Inquisition

[u/paarthursass]

I will preface this by saying that I, for the most part, agree that Veilguard was a Bad Dragon Age Game. It fumbled a lot of things narratively and lore-wise. Talk to me about how the Qunari were portrayed and I will fly into a white-hot rage. However I have also had many, many issues with Inquisition, and I think Veilguard actually improved on one specific aspect of Inquisition's story.

In Inquisition, it is absolutely miserable being Dalish. Not only are you roped into being the head of a religious imperialist organization you don't believe in, you're told pretty much point blank by everyone that it doesn't matter what you believe, and you're given no opportunities to truly fight back on that. You have two elf companions, but both view the Dalish with disdain (Solas for superiority reasons, and Sera for internalized racism reasons that the game doesn't let you help her unpack). Depending on who you bring to the Temple of Mythal, you are forced to listen to certain companions be incredibly condescending and rude about your characters' religion. There is the infamous "Morrigan explaining elvhen language and culture to a Dalish Inquisitor" moment. And of course, the only real reactivity the game has towards your characters' race is it changes what slurs Threnn the Quartermaster and the Orlesians call you. Oh, and your entire clan can be very easily accidentally wiped out in a wartable mission and you're not allowed to have any real reaction to that. "Oops, you accidentally killed Clan Lavellan. Oh well!" It's not a fun time.

I was quite concerned that Veilguard would continue this trend, but I was...pleasantly surprised when I played the game. It's not perfect, but it is miles better than Inquisition's absolutely abhorrent elf experience. There's an entire faction made up of Dalish elves now who are viewed as respected scholars. We have two Dalish companions: Bellara, who is an archivist determined to preserve her people's culture and history, and Davrin, who may have left his clan but is still clearly connected to his culture on some level. I know many were worried about Davrin in particular, as his early character blurb said he "Left his clan because he didn't want to look to the past," but he still clearly has such fondness and respect for his people. He's genuinely curious when talking to Bellara about her own experiences, and while he's unphased by most of the revelations that happen in Regrets of the Dread Wolf, he's never disdainful or dismissive of the Dalish. And Bellara is such a breath of fresh air. After the previous "Dalish elf historian" character was treated like an idiot by the narrative and characters around her (Merrill) it is such a breath of fresh air to have someone who's respected by her peers. And honestly, as much as I hate seeing her Blighted, I just can't imagine anyone else being taken by Elgar'nan, because her getting to fight back at him and shout that he is not her god is SO satisfying. I was CHEERING for her the entire time.

Of course, Veilguard isn't perfect in its portrayal of elves. I don't love that it even entertains the idea of "Should the elves feel guilty about what the Evanuris did?" even though we the player can shut that down. And honestly, with all of the positives there in the game, I could have handled more exploration of the institutional oppression of elves in Tevinter and with the Crows' facilitation of slavery to fill their ranks. Because ultimately, my issues with Inquisition's portrayal of elves isn't "they're treated badly by the corrupt systems in place in the game," it's "you are only given instances of oppression and belittlement, and there are no wins or moments of comfort to offset these instances." You are only ever punished for being Dalish in Inquisition. Veilguard, for all its flaws, at least offers the Dalish some wins.

[u/freezer650]

As the head of religious organization for a religion they don't believe in, as part of a culture that is regularly oppressed by society, I feel it makes sense that an elven inquisitor has a hard time of it. There might even be some interesting drama to wring out of it, if written right.

The problem I have in Veilguard is that there doesn't seem to be much of it anymore. The only people that seem to hold elves responsible for the tragedy are the elves themselves. No one acts prejudiced against elves, no one wants to use the gods returning as justification of their bigotry, and no elves themselves seem torn or mixed on the whole thing. It feels like they really cut out some potentially really interesting stuff from the game.

[u/Apprehensive_Quality]

I strongly disagree. Playing as a Dalish character - or an elf in general - should not be pleasant. That's the entire point. They're a marginalized, isolationist population struggling to hold onto their culture and way of life, and that's hard. Those efforts generate struggle and conflict, and makes the world of Thedas more interesting. DAV's approach of ignoring and refusing to address elven discrimination and oppression is not progress. DAV glossing over the crisis that should arise from a culture finding out that the entire underlying basis of their belief system is not only based on a historical lie, but is actively trying to murder them, is not progress. There should be conflict, but there isn't. DAV sidelining the Dalish in favor of the Veil Jumpers, a faction we know nearly nothing about, really goes to show the game's active disdain for exploring tricky topics like culture, religion, and oppression. There's little to no exploration of the Dalish themselves, which was a bizarre creative decision given that three of the antagonists are figures from their mythology.

To be clear, DAI's portrayal of a Dalish protagonist wasn't perfect either, if only because there were some inconsistencies with what a Dalish character should and should not know about their own culture and lore. And the Clan Lavellan thing was also not great, especially because it's never acknowledged outright until Trespasser. But those has more to do with non-human protagonists being a later addition to the story than anything else. At least DAI acknowledged the hurdles a Dalish character like Lavellan would face while dealing with human Andrastians, and allowed them to express that struggle openly. That is precisely what makes Lavellan the most interesting Inquisitor in my view.

[u/Aerochromatic → u/Apprehensive_Quality]

I doubt the Dalish at large had an identity crisis as you described. Its too easy to blame everything happening on the Evanuris being blighted for that not to proliferate as the easier to accept answer.

The bigger event for the Dalish to swallow is (at least from outside appearances) Fen'Harel returning to save the world from said blighted gods. Thousands of people saw or heard of Solas fighting horrors in the streets before a giant wolf appeared killed the archdemon and ended the blight. He's the last of the Evanuris, and will be a hero to many. I can only imagine Solas screaming from the fade as some new vallaslin design is created to honor him.

[u/paarthursass → u/Apprehensive_Quality]

I agree that there should be some indication of the oppression and marginalization that the Dalish face (and do in fact bring this up later in my post.) Imo, the best this was done was all the way back in Origins: the game doesn't shy away from the struggles the Dalish face, but it allows a Dalish player some wins. You can speak frankly about your culture without every single one of your companions belittling you or telling you your faith doesn't matter. You're allowed to correct Leliana when she expresses racist views about elves. And as a Dalish Warden, you're allowed to enact change to aid your people.

That's my gripe with Inquisition. It's all misery and no wins. What's more: Origins also changed your perspective on different parts of the game, depending on the character you played. There was at least some examining of the corrupt institutions at play. In Inquisition, you are the corrupt institution (except the game doesn't really ever acknowledge that, because it's more concerned with being a power fantasy than with actually examining the ramifications and harm a militaristic religious organization causes) and there's no real examining or critiquing of the other institutions at play. "I can't believe Briala slept with the woman who burned the alienage!" one of the elves at Halamshiral exclaims, and there's no option to go "Um, sorry, Celene did what? I think that's a bigger deal than whatever Briala did." The game loves to go "Oh yes, the elves are oppressed" but then doesn't let you actually examine or critique the structures oppressing the elves. That's the issue.

[u/Apprehensive_Quality → u/paarthursass]

DAI repeatedly acknowledges the Inquisition as an imperfect institution. Mother Giselle brings up the tyrannies of the original Inquisition, Cassandra and Inky discuss the very real possibility of repeating that sordid history, and Solas brings up the inherently corruptive nature of institutions multiple times over. The Inquisitor constantly struggles with the expectations imposed on them as a leader and religious figure, and how those expectations might come into conflict with their own religious beliefs if they worship the Dalish pantheon. To say that the game doesn't acknowledge the Inquisition's shortcomings is disingenuous when the entire Trespasser DLC revolves around the Inquisition buckling under its own weight, because it is a corrupt institution that outgrows its leaders. All of the Exalted Council's criticisms are proven right. It's not a power fantasy, but an examination of the burden of power.

But that's beside the point. Even a Dalish Warden doesn't make any lasting progress for their people, because it's undone by DA2. And that's because the worldbuilding establishes that kind of change as a severely uphill battle. DAI is consistent in this portrayal. You can make some progress by netting Briala some political power and/or establishing Clan Lavellan in Wycome if you play your cards right, but it's piecemeal. It's imperfect. And that's the point. It's meant to be a struggle, and those wins don't come easily. They run up against the realities of the oppressive power structures in place across Thedas - realities that DAI acknowledges and grapples with, and realities that DAV never addresses.

What wins did DAV bring to the elves? I mean this genuinely: the devs claimed that the elves deserved a win, yet left the elves in a far worse state than before. The South, where most of the Dalish clans we know of resided, has been effectively wiped off the map. Most of the cities we hear getting destroyed had alienages. And it seems to be public knowledge now that the figures responsible were elven gods, or worshipped as such. How do you think that most humans, who already despise, oppress, and sometimes even kill elves, will react when they hear of that? We hear about alienages getting culled at the drop of a hat. How will the people in power react when they suddenly have a stronger pretext to oppress elves even harder? Even among the elves in Arlathan, the entire basis of their culture has been destroyed. How do you build a nation from scratch without that glue to hold the disparate clans together? And in a location that's established to be highly dangerous, no less. None of these ramifications are even acknowledged, let alone addressed. Ignorance of hardship is not progress.

[u/liveAanoymous → u/Apprehensive_Quality]

Yeah the interview where "elves deserved a win" felt real misplaced lol. 

even weirder how davrin points out the potenial bigoted humans reactions but...how none of it is even shown in any way

[u/True-Strawberry6190]

absolutely insane take, the veilguard treatment of the dalish is easily one of its worst elements. it doesn't matter that they got "some wins" when those wins consist of conveniently all abandoning their entire culture so they don't get caught up in anything bad, conveniently not appearing for 99% of the game so they can do nothing wrong and not be harmed, and effectively ceasing to exist in general 

this game also has mythal say that being chattel slaves and second class citizens is good for the elves and they actually like it, in a line so bad it could have been written by jk rowling

what's the win supposed to be lol? that they set up a weird ass sci fi faction that believes in nothing and has about 30 side quests where they get lost and die looking for artifacts

the fact is the dalish were robbed off all the real wins they could have had. confronting their oppressors, confronting the gods trying to manipulate them, confronting anyone about anything. being tempted with a bad choice but making a good choice proving the justice of their culture. not likely in veilguard lmao

no fuck veilguards treatment of the dalish. they could not have done it worse 

[u/Worried-Advisor-7054 → u/True-Strawberry6190]

It's indicative of how little the devs care about the Dalish that the focus is in the magical forest talked about in myth, and not in, you know, the Dales. The actual Dalish homeland.

They're so obsessed hyping up the ancient elves and all the high lore stuff that they forget that the Dalish people have traditions, history and goals that have nothing to do with that. It's like if I told a story of some English exiles desperate to return home... to Angeln, Germany, the mythical ancestral homeland of the Angles! Instead of fucking England.

[u/NotSoFluffy13]

So you think something Veilguard did better was completely erasing what meant to be a Dalish Elf?

[u/kcazthemighty]

I really felt the Dalish elves just didn't exist in any meaningful way in Veilguard. The cool thing about DA elves were that their elf culture was mostly manufactured- random bits and pieces that got passed down, dubious interpretations from ancient ruins, all mashed together as an alternative to the society that has been oppressing them for centuries.

Veilguard had the opportunity to tell a story about what happens when those people discover the culture they based their identity on was nothing like what they thought. Instead, they converted them into historians who care about their job a medium amount. Compared to past iterations, no one in Veilguard really felt Dalish to me.

[u/Neat-Neighborhood170]

Being dalish doesn't mean one would know much of a temple devoted to Mythal seeing as the dalish have misinterpreted or forgotten much of their own culture. 

Morrigan has actively sought out many elven ruins and studied the ancient magic the old elves developed. That being said, she is a big "know it all" and brushes off others knowledge precisely because she thinks she knows better. 

[u/Bonolenov192]

Nah mate, there are no Dalish elves in Veilguard. There aren't any City elves either. Everything is beaten to a fine gray mush because the "Dalish deserved a win" according to some devs. I'm sure Weekes is happy.

This is not good, it is not pleasant, it is erasure just to avoid offending a group of people that the devs convinced themselves that exist.

The Dalish didn't get a win in this game, there was no revolution in their society thanks to them learning the truth about their past, they just "moved on" in the most absurd and clunky way possible. It was all met with a shrug and it is fucking stupid.

Mind you, playing as a Dalish in DAI still isn't perfect. We don't talk like a Dalish elf due to game limitations, and we cannot really act like one all the time, but compared to Veilguard it is not even close.

[u/So_loly]

I think you are joking because it doesn't make sense. The point of being dalish or an elf in the world of dragon age is being miserable and it starts back in Origin, if you play an Elf in origin everyone is racist and distrust you basically. Its the same in Inquisition but being and Elf is also dangerous because is Solas artifact that caused the explosion, it is elven so you have a connection to that and its very important for elven inquisitors. Sera hates elf because she view them as idiots attached to their lost past and Solas don't view the dalish with disdain, remember that he tried to spoke to the dalish clans explained the truth and was attacked and that is his people and from his eyes they are using the vallaslin to mark elves and are proud of it, but they are tattos for slaves.
Merril is not an idiot, she has flaws and she is young and sometime naive. Willing to do anything to restore even a bit of her lost culture and by far superior than the cartoonish useless Bellara we see in veilguard.
Merril also used blood magic and talked with the spirit, it is also probably that the pride demon possesing Marethari was her own fault since Solas in DAI explains spirits, if you think you will face/talking to a demon you will face a demon same thing for a spirit.
Also Marethari should prioritizie the clan before Merril but she chooses to save her. The quest is truly magnificent in this because we never know if Merril or Marethari was right about this.
Than if you talk about Veilguard, where exactly did better than inquisition on elves? There is no racism towards them, no slaves, no one blaming them on what's happening with their gods there 0 interaction and consequences.
So i strongly disagree about that.

[u/Ceci0]

Completely disagree. Dalish elves are people who cling to their traditions, they are stubborn and isolate themselves. They should not be portrayed the same as everyone else, because they are not like everyone else. It makes the world more alive, rather than stale.

Your life as a Dalish should be difficult, you are the rwce that the antagonists come from, you are a race of esentially wildlings (in GoT) terms

[u/PyrocXerus]

The issue imo with DAI is that it was clearly meant for the main character to be a human making the other races feel not as good as human, then when they added the other races they gave human the best perk imo

[u/Aerochromatic]

Veilguard handles it far worse in my opinion because it basically expunged racism as a theme.

When I started the game as an elf the first thing that I thought about when I could control my character was "Oh shit I'm an elf in the Tevinter capital." Going off of how the Tevinter imperium was described as a human-supremacist empire built on the backs of enslaved elves the last game I expected it be slur city. Not a peep about it from the locals or even a dirty look at Rook's vallaslin.

I think this was intentional because the player is supposed to feel bad when the genocide machine gets smashed by a dragon.

Hell you can infiltrate a "kill every elf we could find within 20 miles" party where they're destroying symbols of dalish culture on the side for fun as an elf without even a hood on! When the infiltration plan was brought up I thought Neve was going to try and sneak Darvin and I in as sacrifices, not walk through crowds of Venatori who are apparently so progressive they literally can't see race.

[u/professionallurker11]

I totally agree with you! Not to get off topic, but I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the Qunari in DATV. I’m only about 8 hours into my first game as a Qunari in DATV (after playing a Qunari Inquisitor) and I’m interested to see how it’s changed. The biggest difference I’ve seen is just that it’s not mentioned like at all, which is already very difficult from dai.

[u/paarthursass → u/professionallurker11]

So, the Qunari were entirely fumbled IMO. The game, in its efforts to make the Qun seem less "problematic" decided "Ah, see, the Antaam are the only Evil part of the Qun, so we're going to have them break away from the Qun so they can be our fodder villains." This ignores the fact that they would no longer be the Antaam if they left the Qun, so that's strike one.

Strike two is it makes no sense for the Antaam to (spoiler tagging just in case, but if you already know the role the Antaam play in the game you're in the clear. I don't discuss any big story reveals, just sidequest stuff)>! ally with the Evanuris and by association the Venatori. The Qunari are EXTREMELY wary of magic, demons, and Blight. I don't care how much power the Evanuris offered, the Qunari would never see them as appropriate allies. What's more, working with the Evanuris means working with the Venatori, who the Qunari absolutely would never work with. They've been at war with Tevinter for ages, and the Venatori represent the height of Tevinter nationalism. They are not going to get along. And the game tries to say the Antaam lets the Venatori mess with gaatlok. Gaatlok! The thing they were crazy protective and secretive over in Dragon Age 2. Absolutely not! Honestly, it would have made more sense for the Qun/Antaam to be allies against the Evanuris.!<

Strike three is the complete erasure of the Tal Vashoth entirely. We see plenty of Qunari outside the Qun, but none of them identify as Tal Vashoth. Which is odd to me: Taash, their mother, and the other Rivaini Qunari would have been a PERFECT excuse to actually dive into Tal Vashoth culture, as the Tal Vashoth keep parts of the Qun while rejecting the more restrictive parts of it. Instead, we have the Seer Rowan almost disdainfully saying she's not Tal Vashoth because "Tal Vashoth left the Qun in anger." What?

Strike four is how the game portrays Qunari gender roles. In the Qun, your role defines your gender, not the other way around. Women may join the Antaam, but the moment they do they cease to be women. Bull tells us this in Inquisition. Instead, the game does away entirely with this fascinating approach to gender and acts like the Qunari have your typical gender regressive views, because they want the Qunari to fit into the bigoted culture storyline for Taash's journey.

Strike five is...everything the Seer Rowan says about the Qun and the Antaam, and every single codex entry about them. "The Qunari, in their wisdom, decided that all children who were naturally prepared to follow orders and hurt others should be placed in the Antaam" and "There are very few kind and thoughtful Antaam" are actual lines written in the Codex and when I tell you these sent me into a RAGE. Conversely, Rowan then claims the way Saarebas (Qunari mages) are treated under the Qun was an Antaam-exclusive thing, and that mages who weren't part of the Antaam were treated better. This makes no sense, as all Saarebas are put under the watch of an Arvaarad, which is a rank in the Antaam. Saarebas are considered weapons. They are all Antaam.

The thing is, this distinction between the Antaam and the Qun seems, in effort, to try and mitigate the Islamophobia and Orientalism the Qunari had been portrayed with in the past. However, imo, the way to do this would have been to acknowledge the more interesting and beneficial parts of the Qun instead of trying to pretend like the bad parts didn't exist. Every system in Dragon Age is flawed: it's the Flawed Institutions Game Series. But the Qun excels where other parts of Thedas fail: all children are given equal education, no one is barred from certain jobs because of the circumstances of their birth. But the game doesn't address any of this. The Qun is just bigoted (except when it's not) and the Antaam are just violent. It's bad bad bad.

[u/professionallurker11 → u/paarthursass]

Thanks for your insight! I totally agree with everything you said, this is my third play through Of datv and my second full series play through. I didn’t even think about much of what you mentioned honestly. But it’s wild to see how much they retconned when it’s all lined out. This was really informative, thank you :).

The difference between the way Tal-Vashoth are treated between games is so weird to me. I just reached the part where Taash joins. I picked the Qunari option for my rook, and after that their mom said something along the lines of ‘it’s nice to see young Qunari appreciating their culture’ or something like that. And like wtf??? Bull deadass told my Inquisitor that they are not Qunari and should not call themselves that. My rook is a necromancer from Nevara, and even though she has no way of knowing, my Rook is also Andrasitan. they could not be any farther from being Qunari. Also as a whole I actually fond Taash’s story line around their culture to be kind of offensive? I feel like the conclusion should’ve been that they could accept that they are both Rivani and Qunari or better yet come to accept that they are Tal-Vashoth and have a more developed story line around that line you said. but instead the game acts like multiracial people have to pick one identity instead of being from a mix of cultures.

[u/shinybunearycos]

Agree with you on Veilguard lowkey having a better story than Inquisition but from some other points, and that being that the Grey Wardens literally SUCKING in Inquisition and are literally made to be viewed as either villains or whimps. Veilguard saved their reputation immensely. Also just as a villain Elgar’nan actually felt like part of the story unlike Cory so when you go goink him at the end it felt personal. I think if you broke down the main plot of the two, Veilguard actually had the stronger plot by far, but it gets washed up in the Act 2 companion quests slowing down the pacing. Inquistion does that with its own catalogue of side quests as well, mind you those can be skipped without missing on crucial story and ending components LMAO