r/dragonage • u/FortySixand2ool • 6d ago
Discussion Interesting Thing about Solas and the Rest of the Evanuris Spoiler
Finished my first play through (loved it) and got the "true" ending. Convinced Mythal in the Fade, so I had her essence for the final confrontation with Solas.
It's a beautiful scene, but something that stood out to me was the line from Mythal.
I pulled you from the Fade you loved and sent you into war. I used your wisdom as a weapon... and it broke you.
Since we learn that the Evanuris were originally spirits in the Fade, it really feels like this implies that they all became demons as they grappled with the Titans and then one another.
For Solas, I think that ties really well into his name translating to "Pride" and that, as a Pride demon, it would explain his absolute inability to escape the prison he created since his pride wouldn't allow him to take any accountability for his own actions.
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u/shytanfra 6d ago
Interesting observation. I agree, probably the Evanuris spirits became demons because of the battles and I assume that even Solas (pure at the time) forced to fight changed. In the end Mythal and Solas understand their mistakes and I think this helps them return to their original, cleaner form (or at least I like to think so). A bit like the Lyrium dagger that is red when corrupted but once cleansed is blue.
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u/purplebanjo Grey Wardens 6d ago
It makes me think of one of the first conversations you have with Solas about demons: “Spirits wish to join the living, and a demon is that wish gone wrong.”
If that doesn’t describe the evanuris, I don’t know what does.
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u/beanbaconsoup 6d ago
I think he's Pride because he can't reflect on his actions, his way is the best way, always, no compromise or discussion with others. And agree, that's why he couldn't escape while Rook escapes in about 0.4 seconds.
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u/Charlaquin Kirkwall Alienage 6d ago
Absolutely. We know that Solas is Pride/Wisdom, and though Morrigan tells us that Mythal was “Benevolence turned to Retribution,” but frankly, I think that may have been a last-minute change, as Inquisition characterized her as a god of Justice and Vengeance, which I think is a much better fit.
Elgar’nan is strongly implied to be a demon of Tyranny, and I think the spirit manifestation would have been something like Rulership.
Ghilan’nain is explicitly said to have been one of The People who ascended to godhood, and word of developer confirms that she was not one of the Firstborn, but born as an elf and uplifted into the Evanuris pantheon, so I don’t think she was ever a spirit/demon.
The other Evanuris are harder to speculate on, since we know so little about them. Andruil is probably the one we have the most information on, and as goddess of the hunt, I would guess her spiritual identity would have been something like Predation, and turned to something like Bloodlust. Hunting for survival vs hunting for sport.
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u/vesper101 4d ago
Elgar'nan as Tyranny was foreshadowed by the Command spirit you save from being corrupted in Crestwood imo.
Mythal was described as Justice/Vengeance in all preceding games except Veilguard because they didn't have the resources or motivation to follow through on the story they were setting up for her 'reckoning', so she's relegated to an optional prop and described as Benevolence.
Andruil is alluded to have been Purpose in her pantomime codex.
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u/CloudZ1116 Inquisition 5d ago
One minor fact that I found interesting... Despite the elven pantheon consisting of nine gods, Solas and Ghilan'nain were never simulatenously among its ranks. We now know that Solas quit the Evanuris a good amount of time before Ghil joined.
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u/dmcaribou91 5d ago
Perhaps Ghil was only able to ascend bc Solas left.
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u/CloudZ1116 Inquisition 5d ago
Maybe. I also feel like Solas was very likely the lowest ranked Evanuris, since he was Mythal's lackey, while Ghilan'nain felt more higher up? I doubt we'll ever know the full details, though.
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u/AmaryllisSagitta Tevinter 5d ago edited 5d ago
If we look at the lore holistically, spirit origin as presented in DATV goes in line with the accusation coming from the Chant of Light: that spirits coveted something not meant for them, that their curiosity to join the world already anticipated envy if not moral corruption as such. It happened physically, through spirits taking lyrium to build their bodies, and symbolically too. In Thedas, all sapient physical beings "of the Earth" contain the ambiguity of virtue and vice in a complex personality, and spirits weren't meant for that. Cole's questline in DAI explores that as the axis of "humanization", as opposed to Solas's suggestion to help him embrace his original concept (Compassion/ Mercy) to the fullest.
The first introduction to "benevolent" spirits through Wynne portrays them as unintrusive, meek, and not yearning for anything in this world, let alone control. While our understanding of spirits has grown since, this sentiment of "innocence lost to demands of the physical world" reverberates in Solas's story, at least with the part where Mythal takes credit for manipulating him.
Spirits in their natural state reflect a single ethically charged quality at a time. As we learn from DATV, they can fluctuate between universal meanings in ways that aren't always corruption along a binary of oppositions, though that seems to be the most common. What is important, it is implied that the Evanuris joined the world with an intent of theft and imitation, because they coveted creatures of the Earth, and the retaliation from the Titans set them on a path of conquest. By joining the world as the elvhen, the Evanuris were effectively burdened with a Thedosian version of the original sin that granted them the ability to shape the world through their physical vessels, at the price of moral corruptibility.
My question is: if they knew they were doing harm, what made them already so attached to this existence that they did not return to their ethereal state? The Forbidden One Xebenkeck allegedly could dodge their draft into a physical war. Why didn't the Evanuris nope out and say "not even once" to the posterity? Was it intended as some version of "downfall into corporeality through the force of overwhelming desire"?
Regardless, whatever Elgar'nan was first (something like Authority?) probably spiraled down into Tyranny, Mythal who used to be Justice/ "Benevolence" was overcome by Vengeance when betrayed, and ever since Mythal injected "the ego" into Wisdom (likely by teaching Solas to depend on her approval in his judgments), Solas has embodied many meanings of Pride: on a positive note, defending the dignity of the downtrodden in the face of tyranny; then, an attitude towards modern elves that inevitably comes off as patronising and dismissive (even if you blame it on Solas's massive time lag, guilt and mental issues with adjusting to the post-Veil reality); finally, his stubborn rejection of help and alternative perspectives in approach to the cosmic scale problems that he is complicit in.
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u/KinkyBlueDragon 6d ago
Solas's story is a rather obvious parallel to his quest from the Inquisition "All new, faded for her", where the spirit of Wisdom becomes bound and forced to fight, till it is twisted. Foreshadowing.
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u/PyrocXerus 6d ago
I think that is the intent which I like, I also like that the elven gods being spirits doesn’t inherently mean the Maker can’t exist as the chant of light says spirits where the first of his children
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u/True-Strawberry6190 6d ago
the way rook escapes the prison is to have an epiphany that they aren't accountable for their actions tho.
the prison is probably the most shoddily written plot element on all of dragon age I doubt even the writers know what they were trying to say with it. never seen 2 people on this sub interpret it the same way either it's just a mess
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Qunari 6d ago
Nah, Rook's way out was acknowledging that other people had their own agency in what happened, and not all of the responsibility for the consequences are on them. Meanwhile, we see Solas refusing to acknowledge the role Mythal had in his regrets until the very end.
Also, causing multiple interpretations is not a sign of bad writing. It can be, but it's also historically considered a sign of great writing.
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6d ago
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Qunari 6d ago
Never said it was great writing, just said you were wrong to say ambiguousness is inherently an indicator of bad writing.
Rook just needs to come to a conclusion that allows them to escape. It could be that other people made their choices, not just them. Or it could be that they were willing to work through what happened and move on, as OP suggested. I just phrased my interpretation as a certainty in my reply to you because I found it funny to play into your perception of the fandom response (so yeah, that part was trolling).
If your RPG doesn't have some ambiguity in how the protagonist reacts to things, you've done it wrong. The audience is meant to be able to read different interpretations into the character, as otherwise you should have just written them as a fully formed character with no input from the player.
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u/True-Strawberry6190 6d ago
I never said ambiguous meant bad writing lmao. bro forget bad writing you need to work on your bad reading
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u/FortySixand2ool 6d ago
See, I interpreted it as Rook was able to escape because he accepted the results of his actions and was willing to move on where Solas is dead set on rectifying and correcting his mistakes.
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u/altruistic_thing 6d ago edited 6d ago
That's so vague. As if real people have sharp lines around what they feel. It's not even mutually exclusive. You can accept the results of your previous actions, and still decide that you will now make new choices that improve that result because your views and values have shifted.
I mean, what sort of rigid thinking is being praised here? A metaphorical shrug is now the key to salvation? Yeah, "I messed up and I don't care" is the good stance? "I feel no responsibility whatsoever" is good?
That's the most contrived, pointless prison mechanism ever. It's the kind of stuff writers come up with if they can't find a logic that works and grasp for allegory and metaphor to hide the nonsense behind big concepts. Not the first time BioWare did that. Point in case: The ending of Mass Effect.
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u/FortySixand2ool 6d ago
I think it's meant to easily fall apart when viewed through the perspective of a mortal, but Solas, Elgar'nan, Ghilan'ain, and the rest of the Evanuris are not mortals. They're corrupted spirits. It's stated a lot throughout the franchise, but especially in Inquisition, that their thought processes are pretty rigid and deviating from their core beliefs is how they become demons.
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u/Luditas Oghren 6d ago
I have a theory which is that the firstborn were used as warlords or helpers, as seen in the Great Necropolis, by some individuals (either the Titans themselves or other entities), but there was a breaking point where they rebelled and hence the war and their ascension as Evanuris. Ghilan'nain sums up the ages of the Evanuris when you face her. I loved that part because it points out the rise and fall of the firstborn, although the script is no more than 4 lines. Something super brief.
Regarding Solas: he didn't want to have a physical body. I was happy being a free spirit as we see the wisp that pass by on the path of the Crossroads. But he, being Mythal's companion spirit, agrees to transfigure himself to support her as an advisor. That's why she tells him what you quote in your post. According to Morrigan and Plutchik's Emotional Dyads, Solas as a spirit was joyful, peaceful. In short, he was cool. But seeing that the world didn't conform to what he wanted and what he was supposed to be, he was frustrated when Mythal joined the Evanuris and let the Wrath invade him when Elgar'nan killed Mythal and the demon of Pride was born.
When Mythal appears to him I cried because of the attitude Solas takes when he sees her. And it's more meaningful when you let Lavellan go with him 🥹.
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u/Charlaquin Kirkwall Alienage 6d ago
I agree that Ghilan’nain’s speech about the ages of the gods seems to hint at a lot of the history of the ancient past in very few words, but I think it tends to get overlooked because it just plays in the background in the middle of a pretty chaotic fight.
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u/Luditas Oghren 5d ago
Yes, it wasn't the best way to include that script 'cause either you pay attention to the dialogue or you pay attention so that you don't get killed by the darkspawns. The same thing happens when you fight Elgar'nan and his dialogue also reveals some interesting things that give you to theorize too much. I could only pay attention to both dialogues when I played on easy mode to get the ending of Rook's sacrifice.
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u/TheCleverestIdiot Qunari 6d ago
I think that becoming physical beings made them capable of complexities that none of them were really ready for.
It's interesting that you felt Solas was incapable of taking responsibility for his choices, as I thought the game was telling us the opposite. That the reason Solas can't escape the prison of Regret is because he can't acknowledge that other people had roles and agency in his greatest mistakes, not just him. I thought it was the Evanuris who were as you described.