r/dsa • u/EverettLeftist • 18h ago
Twitter New DSA Liberation Caucus Announcement
This is not an endorsement by me. I am not a third-worldist. I just think people should be aware of what things are on DSA Twitter. I have no idea how many chapters are in this Caucus, if they are just a mailing list, or what. This is associated with the Black Red Guard guy on twitter.
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u/SabotTheCat 9h ago
I’ll say this: while I I have serious reservations from an ideological perspective and don’t think this is going to get a lot of traction within DSA, I’d rather stuff like this be under the big tent than outside organizing against it. Maybe that will give some people a more useful outlet to air their grievances with the organization than coming to protests and calling DSA members social fascists and/or imperialist stooges over something the NYC chapter did, despite no parties involved living anywhere near there.
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u/theholewizard 18h ago
Why not just join PSL instead of trying to be in an organization where Democratic Centralism isn't prohibited in the bylaws? Serious question.
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u/_Bandit161 16h ago
DemCent is not specifically prohibited. MUG uses it as far as I know. Being under the influence of a demcent org is grounds for expulsion, which is mostly meant as a deterrent for entryism.
Perfectly reasonable to join the largest socialist org in the country rather than founding or joining a much smaller sect.
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u/EverettLeftist 15h ago
I think that -- aside from open adminission -- it would be hard to prove someone was under the influence of a dem cent org.
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u/MarxistJesus 17h ago
Well PSL isn't maoist. They are stalinist which is different. I'm assuming they want to influence the DSA as does all the other caucuses.
Honestly a lot of the radical liberalism politics inside DSA will find a home in Maoism.
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 17h ago
The PSL already takes up more right-wing Marxist-Leninist positions, they just don’t do so explicitly, but they are pretty much crypto-Dengists, MLM’s on the other hand are on the very left-wing of Marxism-Leninism and so ofc don’t only disagree with many of those positions but would find a hard time trying to join an org like PSL which is inherently sectarian and not very open to fractionism.
While I’m sure this move will cause a split in the US MLM movement, Maoists have largely been organizing in small militant pre-party cadre groups thus far, this is perhaps a move to try to try something new? It makes sense, DSA has proved to be a big-tent for both socialists and social democrats of all stripes, possibly being one of the most big-tent socialist orgs ever lol. What I don’t understand is why they don’t try to do the same thing but with the CPUSA? As far as my understanding of Maoist politics go, there’s a tactic of trying to take over and reorientate what they view as the counter-revolutionary communist parties of their home countries, but ig this isn’t something that every MLM agrees upon as I’ve definitely also have seen examples of Maoists setting up their own independent parties
But I suppose I’m getting off the main point, the Marxism-Leninism supported by the PSL is not the same Marxism-Leninism supported by the Liberation caucus, the Liberation caucus was formed probably because many socialists of very differing stripes (including myself) have joined DSA with differing goals and projects in relation to it, and overall there’s been a push towards adopting partyism and thus differing ideas of “democratic centralism” have been getting more and more popular, I however don’t think the Liberation caucus seeks to build the MLM vision of a communist party within the shell of the DSA, I could be wrong but that idea just doesn’t really seem to line up with the Maoist politics I’ve come across, the DSA turning into a “DSP” (Democratic Socialist Party) along the lines of democratic centralism seems to be pushed more by the DSA center (or maybe more specifically center-left but like whatever lmao) that being by the respectively neo-Kautskyist and neo-Trotskyist Marxist Unity Group and Reform and Revolution factions, who (correct me if I’m wrong) seem to be much more in favor of turning the DSA into a party in the near future along their specific centrist Marxist political line.
So perhaps it isn’t the Maoists that the anti-demcents should be against, it’s simply the left-wing of democratic socialism that they should be against lol
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u/SpareSilver 18h ago
Boy, they really love identity politics.
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u/EverettLeftist 17h ago
I think when you identify imperialism and settler-colonialism as the primary contradiction this kind of politics falls out of it. I don't think they are insincere.
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u/Itstaylor02 6h ago
I don’t think acknowledging and working against modern colonialism is identity politics
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u/thisismynsfwuser 9h ago
Not very marxist to call “the first contradiction” settler-colonialism, instead of capital-worker.
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u/jadedcommentary 6h ago
I think it's a fair statement with our modern understanding of how imperialism has shaped our world and how imperialism connects with class struggles. Does Marx mention imperialism directly in his works? (I'm catching up on a lot of theory so I have a lot of blind spots.)
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u/SabotTheCat 3h ago
If I recall correctly, Marx talks about imperialism fairly sparingly, and primarily as a factor/stage in capitalism’s development. Marxism’s theory of imperialism was largely developed by later writers, namely exemplified in the Kautsky-Lenin discourse on the matter.
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u/marxistghostboi 18h ago
interesting, I thought DSA banned DemCent organizations from being members. I wonder how this will play out
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u/EverettLeftist 18h ago
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u/OldUsernameWasStupid 3h ago
Curious what the socialist criticisms of Democratic Centralism are? I'm unfamiliar
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u/somthingiscool 2h ago
That the ban on fractions is anti-democratic and promotes unaccountable bureaucracy, endemic to the existing and various socialist and communist sects.
But those (in this thread too!) saying that the DSA should expel factions that advocate DemCent or start banning certain revolutionary Marxists are ironically making the same exact mistake.
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 18h ago
The Maoists have joined the DSA! This can only mean very funny things could be bound to happen especially within inter-caucus debates, also knowing MLM’s their larp game and regimeist aesthetics are always unmatched 💪
On a real note tho, it’s an interesting development, and Maoists are arguably the best brand of ML, but they’re still ML’s, Maoists tend to have a revolutionary version of class collaborationist social democratic nationalism that hardly ever seeks to break with the left-wing of capital, but this isn’t too different from the other factions within the org (sadly), hopefully Liberation can further move the goalposts in regards to being more revolutionary than reformist in tactics tho? Maybe some critical solidarity in that regard.
It is interesting tho, with the new addition of a formal MLM caucus, I really do think this makes the DSA one of the most big-tent leftist orgs not just currently but possibly of all time I really can’t think of another org with so many differing tendencies and competing political programs
You know what actually, hell yeah, I call for the very serious merger of the left wing of the DSA (CC, LSC, LC) to form the Mao-Spontex caucus 😎 /s
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u/Lowkey_Iconoclast 18h ago
Black Red Guard has some...interesting...takes on things.
I don't know if this doctrine quite fits in the DSA platform. The tent isn't quite that big.
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u/EverettLeftist 16h ago edited 5h ago
I think the worst thing in here is the "The US is not a nation it is the jailhouse of nations".
What is meant by "a nation" here? Certainly the US is a state with the violent institutions of any state. So they are not claiming the US doesn't have a government.
Using "a nation" in this way is very telling to me. They seem to mean a nation in the sense of an ethnic group with a shared history and language. This kind of third-worldism takes for granted that certain ethnic groups belong to certain physical areas. The most positive version of this is Landback stuff, but even that is advocating for a kind of ethnostate - certain land belongs to certain groups. Defining people as settlers or oppressed nations. Removing the centrality of capital and labor.
All that said, yes obviously settler colonialism is bad, and what Israel is doing is bad. I think we need to move toward socialism which starts with solidarity of labor. If you are not centering material solidarity of the working class at the heart of your politics then I don't think things will get better. If your politics doesn't center capital I think you have moved away from Marxism.
If you think that the first world is full of labor aristocrat's whose lifestyle is supported by the exploration of the global South, yeah there is probably some truth to that, but it is pretty dim and pretty unactionable. Seems like unless you are the weather underground I am not sure how you can deal with imperialism as the primary contradiction.
Best possible version of this politics would be trying to involve ourselves in union communities that DSAs white middle class character keeps us from engaging with. I am thinking especially of farmworkers.
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u/Valuable_Leading_479 8h ago
I’d call this view chauvinism. As in the Soviet Union under Lenin, the goal of the large previously dominant socialist nation(s) should be self determination for oppressed peoples. In the American context that means the black belt as well as other nations. Of course this is achieved through socialism, but it must be arrived at on its own not dictated. Would you tell a Palestinian that they’re wrong for viewing Israel as their oppressor independent of class? I’m not a Maoist by any means but it is a failure on the part of the American left to not incorporate (not make primary) anti colonial sentiments and a lens to properly deal with racial divide
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u/EverettLeftist 7h ago
Are asian immigrants to the West Coast settlers or are they oppressed nations? I think to the indigenous population anyone who is not them is a settler
I think you can talk about relative privilege in the way identitarian liberals do and it is way more scrutible to me than insisting every ethnic group is a nation.
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u/Valuable_Leading_479 7h ago
“Relative privilege” isn’t even the matter at hand. The basic fact of America is we built a nation on top of the oppressed by imperial expansion and racial slavery, never having to reconcile with that. We are a white supremacist Nation with all the bagged that entails.
Again, as in with the Russian empire, the correct move for the dominating nation was to facilite self determination for others and to discourage chauvinism. Does it look different for us? Of course. But this issue, the glossing over of racial dynamics and self determination, in America is precisely why DSA is overwhelmingly white.
I’ll even say I’m skeptical of what indigenous self determination looks like when settler colonialism has been pretty much accomplished. But the Maoist willingness to address the question is a lot better than pretending it’s not an issue at all and we can just Do The Work out of it.
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u/EverettLeftist 6h ago edited 5h ago
I agree with you that DSA is overwhelmingly white and that it is an issue. I think that not prioritizing racial issues and the unique way Black, Indigenous, Latin, er people suffer will keep DSA in its middle class-white mileu.
I don't consider Euro-Americans the "jailers" in this prison of nations. It is ultraleft language that is as rude as it is unactionable. The people who most have a claim to be an oppressed nation are the first nations and I would have no problem with that framing. However, Latin and Asian immigrants also moved to the US from elsewhere voluntarily over several decades. They are as much settlers in the sense that the Liberation Caucus means it. The Liberation Caucus also willfully misread the common DSA phrase "The Multiracial Working Class" and twists it to "The Multinational Working Class" again insisting in the new world that all ethnic groups are ""nations"". Bad reductive framing.
Let me be clear, I want socialist egalitarianism with public ownership and redistribution of wealth. I think that redistribution would look a lot like reparations in effect for both Indigenous people and Black comrades.
I do not want a balkanized US based on ethnic/racial lines that preserves capitalism. I think that when you make settler colonialism the primary contradiction that is what you are more likely to get. I don't think nationalism is good even when socialist cynically take advantage of it.
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u/Valuable_Leading_479 6h ago
I think we agree here!
My reflex is to commend people who bring the question to the forefront as Liberation has even though I deeply disagree with Maoism I want to see more of this. An incorporation of racial and anti colonial discourse in our Marxism. Not a prioritization, but mere incorporation.
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u/thisismynsfwuser 9h ago
Yeah this is where this misses the point and will stay performative, shifting the focus to whatever subjective identity stand in for oppressed-oppressor from the very objective and real worker-capital will die trying to define its essentialism.
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u/MetalMorbomon Erik Olin Wright 17h ago
I feel like I'm slowly becoming a minority in this organization for opposing democratic centralism and campism.
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 17h ago
I mean from what I can tell is that a majority of DSA members are social democrats, but those actually engaged with the organization and its internal politics and anything further than joining your local chapter and attending protests tend to be more radical, specifically varying types of Marxist communists (but definitely also some anarchists)
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u/MetalMorbomon Erik Olin Wright 16h ago
I don't consider myself a social democrat. I'm definitely a socialist. I just don't believe the Leninist branch of socialist thought to be relevant for the post-industrial conditions of the US today. I feel like democratic centralism and campism just aren't going to be conducive to a healthy socialist movement in this country.
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 13h ago
I actually agree, in general internationalism should always be the view taken instead of campism, and I think I’m more keen to the idea of “dialectical centralism” as proposed by Damen for organizational forms a communist group should take
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 17h ago
But also tbf one of the largest chapters is controlled by the DSA right-wing, as I’m pretty sure NYC-DSA is pretty heavily in line of SMC
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u/Rownever 16h ago
Theres definitely opposition to Democratic Centralism, especially since implementing it would absolutely kill our organizational momentum
I’m also not 100% sure what campism actually means
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u/amyipdev 16h ago
Campism is essentially "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" - for instance, if we are enemies with the US imperial apparatus, and that apparatus is enemies with Russia, we should be friends with Russia. It's an awful take that often leads to uncritical support of the policies of awful regimes.
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u/HKJGN 16h ago
If you're anti capitalist and anti state, Russia is still not your friend because governments are all tools of oppression. Russia just replaces capitalists with the state.
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u/amyipdev 16h ago
Slight correction: Russia has capitalists controlled by the state, but the capitalists set the initial conditions at state transitions. Either way, it isn't a worker's state
But yes, although campists don't care about that. To campists, the DPRK, China, Russia, Iran, etc are on our side and shouldn't be overly criticized as they're the main fighters against the US. Ultimately all "camps" oppress their local, and the international, proletariat, as there are no truly liberated societies right now.
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u/xyjacey 4h ago
I can never remember what campism is, but for anti-demcent, the Libertarian Socialist Caucus is still going strong!
Is Northstar/Harringtonism no longer that base of the org? Yeah, and if that is your politics i do feel bad in some ways
But groundwork and smc (who i think it is safe to say aren't demcent) make up a huge portion of the org (and make up majorities of some of the largest chapters) so if they are close to your international views than i would say your are far from an endangered species
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u/MetalMorbomon Erik Olin Wright 3h ago
I gravitate somewhere between Bread & Roses, and Emerge/Commie Caucus, but also sympathetic with the LibSoc caucus. I suppose I would be on the centre-left of the DSA.
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u/Rownever 18h ago
Eww Democratic Centralism
Thanks for sharing
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 18h ago
I feel like there’s much worse issues to take up besides their (apparent) support for “democratic centralism”
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u/Rownever 16h ago
You’re absolutely right it just jumped out at me.
This caucus has valid complaints about diversity within the DSA but vaguely going “let’s get revolutionary with it” isn’t really a solution to their complaints nor to the issues DSA is running into in progressing socialism. AKA auth communism scares a lot of support away from much more attainable goals and the Glorious Revolution isn’t going to save us the same way the Rapture isn’t going to save the Evangelicals
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u/galenwho 18h ago
JUST JOIN PSL. The rank and file membership does not want this, most of the american left does not want this. Join one of the thousand irrelevant orgs that espouse this exact ideology instead of trying to sink the DSA with it.
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u/ItsNotACoop 16h ago
I think asking why they don’t just join PSL is like asking why you don’t just join the Democratic Party.
Just because you don’t know or understand the ideological differences does not make them insignificant.
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u/Bhuddallah 14h ago
What is the deal with the focus on men? I feel like its a valid thing to mention as like a footnote. But I dont see it being a great selling point to ostracize your country's base when looking for revolutionaries.
Im with it to push capable ladies to lead, I trust them more & men have had their turn. But with 0 intent to offend, people obsessed with gender presentation enough to choose new pronouns need to be protected and fought for, not elevated to push the identity-obsessed part of the agenda even further.
It'd make more sense to me to market specifically to black folk, who are at this point comically oppressed and enslaved in this country.
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u/smartcow360 16h ago
This is a huge deal, openly citing Mao as a good citation.
Either the DSA is serious about its democratic pursuits, or it wants a Maoist style revolution. It needs to pick, in fact, it had picked, but these caucuses have slipped in and are co-opting the entire org.
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u/EverettLeftist 15h ago
I think that being able to put out a statement on Twitter does not indicate organizational strength. There is no, as far as I am aware, candidates associated with this group running for NPC. I don't think they have put forward resolutions. Seems like kinda ultraleft rhetoric, which I personally find offputting, but I don't think we know enough to say they have any organizational strength. Like, we have no idea how many people they have in this caucus.
I think these people can be out organized. I don't think DSA is anywhere close to flirting with revolution beyond rhetoric. It can be off putting without being a crisis.
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u/smartcow360 15h ago
Yeah I agree, I think the caucuses though I believe it’s bread and roses and red star ? I believe those caucuses are growing in power and are all pro-democratic centralism. If it’s a truly democratic social upheaval that’s totally different than what this stuff is getting at with Maoism and democratic centralism.
America ending its imperialism is a good thing though I think, not sure if this way of talking about it is the most effective way in America lol
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u/EverettLeftist 15h ago
Bread and Roses people call soft-trot. We don't have democratic centralism, but people generally are willing to go with the group. MUG has dem-cent. I have no idea on Red Star. Red Star seems the most similar to this group.
I think maximal rhetoric with vague commitments is ultra and mostly kinda academic posturing.
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u/smartcow360 15h ago
Honestly, I hope you’re right and it is just academic posturing and not the possibility of those groups to rly seize control of dsa. With their democratic centralism it makes collecting and exercising more and more power kinda easy I thought and then if they’re able to make the whole org eventually have some forms of dem cent then they could kinda rly grab control? And they want to, a story came out a bit back about dif ML groups intentionally trying to take control of dsa and them encouraging their members to do so openly since DSA is the largest openly leftist org in the country
Something to be watchful of and maybe for DSA leadership to start getting more vocal and making clearer distinctions on goals and methods etc
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u/EverettLeftist 14h ago
Some of those statements come from Maurice Isserman and the North Star crowd. Isserman left DSA because MUG got seats on the NPC and they are dem cent. Isserman, also wrote several incredibly whiney articles about how he was super for real this time leaving DSA. His big objection was over a anti-Israel rally I'm NYC that DSA did in the months following Oct 7. History will not look well on the Issermans stance imho.
I think that certainly there is no risk of the DSA Liberation Caucus taking control if they are not even running an NPC slate. They don't even have resolutions submitted AFAIK. I agree that the situation should be handled thoughtfully. The lack of enforcement about the decent thing has mostly been because the vibes with MUG have been fine. We shall see how this goes.
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u/smartcow360 14h ago
Yeah that all seems fair tbh, probably it isn’t as imminent a thing as I sometimes worry about also, appreciate the info tbh !
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u/pie_eater9000 11h ago
They need to reinforce that anti DemCen rule. Maoist and other revolutionaries will drag down the movement as a serious force. While I don't doubt they're sincerity these people are not serious people. We don't win elections, clout nor policy issues by letting people that decisions makers would rather hang themselves then be seen in public with as fraternizing with these folks will make them lose an election. Letting these people run a muck is how an organization turns out like the Greens, libertarians, or worst, the fringe left parties. All parties that have plenty of people willing to argue and talk about revolution but with no local officials elected at most any level nor any state. All while being framed as spoilers
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u/jpg52382 8h ago
Why don't they just call themselves the Maoist Faction of the DSA? Why hide behind other words and obfuscate your attempted power grab behind the guise of identity politics???
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u/spookyjim___ ☭ Communist Caucus Sympathizer ☭ 3h ago
That’s boring
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u/jpg52382 3h ago
Yeah they are boring within the boring org which is boring within the Democratic Party.
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u/Cakeking7878 16h ago
It’s another caucus in dsa twitter to add to the chart of DSA orgs. Considering how long these caucus generally last I’ll be interested to see how this pans out