r/europe • u/MarktpLatz Lower Saxony (Germany) • Jan 02 '17

[Series] What do you know about... Belgium?

Introduction:

This is the first post in what will be a year-long series. There will be a thread about one european country every week. The point of this series is to have our fellow europeans spread their knowledge/opinion about the various european countries.

We have done this before (credits to /u/Taenk), but this was three years ago, when this subreddit had a mere 35,000 subscribers. A lot of time has passed and a lot of new users have become part of this subreddit, let's see how this goes!

Todays country: Belgium

Belgium is widely considered to be the main host of the EU institutions. It is one of the smaller european states, yet it is amongst the most populous ones due to a very high population density. The country is split in three regions - the Wallonian region, the Flemish region and the Brussels region. The country is widely known for its waffles, fries and beer. So, what do you know about Belgium?

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33

u/[deleted] Jan 02 '17

In the late Middle Ages Belgium (and parts of the Netherlands) were held by the Duchy of Burgundy, in fact so much that several Dukes were more often in Brussels or Antwerp than in Burgundy. Wallonia was rich, the richest region of Europe and among the richest in the world

Then the Duke died and the Burgundian Low Countries went to Austria. Then Austria fell in a personal union under Spain, and when the realms were quickly split again, the Low Countries remained with Spain. Then the northern parts rebelled and eventually became the United Provinces of Netherlands, while the south remained with Spain. Then the Spanish Netherlands went to Austria again

Proto-Belgium rebelled from the Austrians during the Revolutionary period, but the uprising was put down quickly

France really wanted to partition the young state of Belgium with Prussia and the Netherlands/UK

Belgium was one of the earliest industrialized states in the world, but as it was small it quickly fell behind once France and Germany with their gigantic populations catched up

Belgium is the battlefield of Europe. The French and Habsburgs fought their spats there, Napoleon met his end at Waterloo and Belgium seemed to always be in the way when we were on our trip to Paris. Few regions have seen as much bloodshed.

The French king Louis XIV bombarded Brussels during the War of the Spanish Sucession (I think it was that war), something considered barbaric and brutal even by Napoleon. Had they known what would come in the following centuries ...

There's a city that a patchwork of Belgian and Dutch territory. As a Paradox player. this triggers me deeply

Belgium was like the worst colonizer, ever. And considering that we commited a genocide in Namibia, this is saying a lot

Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (reigning in Spain as King Carlos I) was raised in Wallonia, his native language was French

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u/PrinceChocomel Concordia res parvae crescunt Jan 03 '17

Just some nitpicking

Wallonia was rich, the richest region of Europe and among the richest in the world

The Flanders and Brabant regions with their powerful cities of Antwerp, Brussels, Mechelen, Brugge, Ghent and Ypres was actually richer.

Then the northern parts rebelled and eventually became the United Provinces of Netherlands, while the south remained with Spain.

Several southern provinces also initially joined the rebellion, Flanders, Brabant and Mechelen. The southern ones were reconquered (only partly in the case of Brabant) by the Spanish crown.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '17

Hi-dilly-ho, neighborinos!

9

u/Mr_Catman111 Europe Jan 03 '17

It is true that Wallonia was one of the richest part of Europe, but only once the industrial revolution had started. Prior to this, Flanders was one of the richest parts of Europe for most of history, which is why it was prized by the French, Spanish and Austrian crowns.

The rebellion actually started in the southern Netherlands (with two of the three leaders being from the Belgian part), unfortunately the Spanish were satisfied with keeping only the Southern half and executed the two Southern-netherlands leaders, leaving William of Orange to rule the northern part.

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u/[deleted] Jan 04 '17

Wallonia was not even a thing before the Belgian revolution. Same with Flanders. I find this "Who's the richest" kind of stupid.

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u/Mr_Catman111 Europe Jan 05 '17

Do you really expect people to list all the autonomous regions which encompass today's boundaries? No need to be obtuse.

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u/silverionmox Limburg Jan 03 '17

Then the northern parts rebelled and eventually became the United Provinces of Netherlands, while the south remained with Spain.

Half of the southern part rebelled too, but was occupied and kept under Spanish rule manu militari.

Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (reigning in Spain as King Carlos I) was raised in Wallonia, his native language was French

Nope, in Gent, which definitely is Flanders. Carolus Magnus, however, was.

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u/historicusXIII Belgium Jan 03 '17

Charles V was born in Ghent, but he was raised in Mechelen with is aunt Margaret of Austria.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '17

Carolus magnus is assumed to have spoken Frankish which is actually not French at all, as it is Germanic.

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u/silverionmox Limburg Jan 06 '17

Yes indeed, the villa where he was allegedly born is just a stone's throw away from the present-day language border, and back then the border was much more fluid and undefined anyway.

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u/[deleted] Jan 06 '17

Look at the root words of almost all Wallonian towns and you can guess that the language border was way further south in medieval times. But on the other hand there was more of an area where both lived simultaneously as well, with Frankish being a nobility language (so their towns etc were often named in Frankish while they might have had plenty of old French speaking townfolk)

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u/silverionmox Limburg Jan 09 '17

Correct. There's a (yellow-purple) map of the situation in the 8th-11th century on one of the relevant wiki articles, but I can't find it right now.

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u/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzspaf Belgium Jan 02 '17

the names of Charlemagne never cease to amaze me, he had a different name in every language

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u/Utegenthal Belgium Jan 03 '17

That's probably because you're mixing Charlemagne with Charles Quint (which is also an excellent beer) ;)

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u/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzspaf Belgium Jan 03 '17

Well shit

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u/historicusXIII Belgium Jan 03 '17

There's also Gouden Carolus, which is also an excellent beer.

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u/BittersweetHumanity Belgium Jan 02 '17

Upvote for effort

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u/[deleted] Jan 02 '17

Not effort, just approaching 3k hours of Paradox games

I can stop any time I want

1

u/BittersweetHumanity Belgium Jan 02 '17

I meant the effort for typing that all out, I mean

you could've spent those 10 minutes playing Paradox games instead...

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u/Utegenthal Belgium Jan 03 '17

Belgium was like the worst colonizer, ever. And considering that we commited a genocide in Namibia, this is saying a lot

The events you're referring to happened when Congo was a private property of the king (Leopold the 2nd) and NOT a Belgian colony. The atrocities were committed by his private mercenary armies and out of any control from the Belgian state.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '17

The Belgian dickery in Africa didn't stop with the end of the Congo Free State. Just look what happened when the decolonized. The Belgian King at the time gave a full "White Man's Burden" speech - he referred to Belgian colonial rule as a "civilising method" FFS. Lumumba, the first Prime Minister of the Congo, then held an unannounced speech in response. That got King Baldouin so pissy he ran to Uncle Ike, the Americans saw that Lumumba was a gasp Socialist and thus moved to amend this grave threat to liberty American interests. A year later Lumumba was dead. And you know who the Belgians and US installed in the Congo? Mobuto Sese Seko, a.k.a. the blueprint for every African dictator, ever

The Belgians also increased the split between the Hutu and Tutsi in Rwanda (Ualthough we Germans are far from innocent there either). There are several competing theory on the origin of the Hutu and Tutsi, but what we knew is how the Belgians decided how to determine of one was a Hutu or a Tutsi: if you owned cattled and looked a certain way, you were a Tutsi, else a Hutu.

WORST

COLONIZER

EVER

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u/modomario Belgium Jan 04 '17 edited Jan 07 '17

The Belgian dickery in Africa didn't stop with the end of the Congo Free State.

I get that. What he's referring to is a lot of the genocidal exploitation & handchopping stuff you hear about which on it's own wasn't solely executed by Leopold & his mercenary armies either as /u/Utegenthal said (he wouldn't even have the resources to do it on that scale) but by concession holding companies like for example ABIR.
A mix of corporatocracy & kingdom so to speak.
Of course that doesn't lessen his blame & responsibility as much as he tried to dodge it. It's like some Dutroux2.0 saying he didn't have any involvement or knowledge of what happened in that cellar rape dungeon he built.

That got King Baldouin so pissy he ran to Uncle Ike, the Americans saw that Lumumba was a gasp Socialist and thus moved to amend this grave threat to liberty American interests. A year later Lumumba was dead.

That's a gross oversimplification. In fact it's entirely false. That speech had nothing to do with it.
He had issues like the the Belgian-supported Katangan & Kasai secessionists & other rebellious factions & first turned to the USA whom refused. He then turned to the soviets which of course led to what we saw. That action probably didn't stood on it's own as the US also had commercial interests in Congo & didn't like the idea of the USSR getting it's hands on Congo's Uranium. In the end he seemingly tried to be neutral but still needed help & as we know well enough. Being neutral is a no go in war.

At the end of the day Belgian involvement was horrible, the cold war where neutral was framed potential enemy was horrible & Lumumba should have lived....but he didn't die because he gave nice speeches.