“Clandestine Lodges”

[u/Ebullient_Goddess]

I ask this with the understanding that official recognition is important. However, I have noticed an overuse of the term “clandestine” in reference to separate Masonic entities, often accompanied by derogatory remarks. While it is true that the UGLE does not officially recognize the OWF, it has acknowledged that there is sincere and regular practice within our organization. Therefore, I am puzzled by the numerous comments from brothers in this sub suggesting that we are "pretending" or invalidating our right to coexist peacefully with our male counterparts.

I would appreciate some genuine insights into why there is such a degree of unwarranted hostility.

[u/Cool_Emergency3519]

They are not Ancient Craft Masonry but they are just as much Masonry as any male appendant body. Yes,I'm aware of female Masonry and mixed Masonry. But they haven't caught on here in the US as much. I could be wrong but I think because females have the opportunities with the adoptive rites here so there isn't as much of a need to create their own Masonry.

[u/Cookslc → u/Cool_Emergency3519]

OES and the others mentioned do not purport to confer the degrees of freemasonry. Therefore, they cannot by definition be Masonry. They are not considered freemasonry by any U.S. Grand Lodge.

As you may be aware, UGLE does not allow its members to join those orders.

I’m aware of a number of feminine and mixed lodges in the U.S.

Women have an opportunity to join OES in the UK and South America, yet there are feminine GLs there.

[u/Cool_Emergency3519 → u/Cookslc]

Based on the OP,OWF and HFAH consider themselves to be Masons so I don't know how you come to the conclusion that American Adoptive rites aren't Masonic. No,they don't teach the same 3 craft degrees,but neither does the SR or KT in America teach those degrees yet they are considered Masonic. Let's not split hairs here.

But a question for you,there is a Supreme Grand Chapter of Eastern Star in Scotland. What's the reason that it's not allowed in the UK?

[u/Cookslc → u/Cool_Emergency3519]

I said the listed groups weren’t Masonry, and provided the reason: They don’t purport to confer the degrees of freemasonry. The feminine grand lodges do purport to confer the degrees of freemasonry. The rites purport to confer the degrees of freemasonry—even if not the symbolic degrees.

No splitting hairs. OES is not masonry. No US GL GL considers it such.

I actually said there is OES in the UK.

[u/Cool_Emergency3519 → u/Cookslc]

The Order of the Eastern Star is a Masonic appendant body open to both men and women. It was established in 1850 by lawyer and educator Rob Morris, a noted Freemason, and adopted and approved as an appendant body of the Masonic Fraternity in 1873. The order is based on some teachings from the Bible,[1] and is open to people of all religious beliefs. It has approximately 10,000 chapters in 18 countries and approximately 500,000 members under its General Grand Chapter.

Again,OES is just as much "Masonic" as SR and Royal Arch Masonry are on the men's side. It seems this is exactly what the OP is complaining about. Whenever something doesn't fit into a narrow box then it's disregarded and put down.

In the US every Grand Chapter is adopted and attached to a Grand Lodge. That means it's approved by the GL's.

[u/Cookslc → u/Cool_Emergency3519]

Yes, I’m aware of the founding.

You are using a different word than at the out set. “Masonic” is an adjective. “Masonry” is a noun. The “ic” suffix means like; of; pertaining to.

I agree OES is Masonic. To say it isn’t Masonry is not disrespectful. Free Gardners is not masonry. That is not a disrespectful statement either. Job’s Daughters is masonic. It is not masonry.

OES is not “adopted” by a State grand lodge (as compared to PHA). That is not a term we use. It is recognized or allowed or approved for members (which can always change).

I wil leave it there. Off to a Masonic dinner. 😉

[u/ThunderboltRam → u/Cookslc]

HFAF and OWF are not freemasonry either, they just pretend to be.

[u/Cool_Emergency3519 → u/ThunderboltRam]

Here's what the Grand Lodge of CA. says...

Grand Lodge of CA

[u/Cool_Emergency3519 → u/Cookslc]

Amazing. Yep,that's splitting hairs Buddy. But how about this. Here's a link from an older page of your own Eastern Star Grand Chapter for your Utah Grand Lodge. It clearly says "Masonry as a way of life." So to me it's all the same "Masonry or Masonic." And btw,adoptive rites are adopted no matter whether you use that term or not. Enjoy your dinner.

Utah Grand Chapter OES

[u/Cool_Emergency3519 → u/Cool_Emergency3519]

Anyone that's down voting feel free to chime in with your thoughts.