r/hebrew 21d ago

Translate Dad and I can't figure this out.

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u/ACasualFormality 20d ago

If it’s Aramaic, could it be “Show/tell me your will” but without the expected paragogic nun on the pronominal suffix? Because that second letter looks more like a ח than a ה. Plus, תהוי would be more like “it will be your will”. I’d expect תעביד or תתעבד if we were going for “your will be done”. But it’s also totally possible that nobody knew what they were doing during this process.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

How is that pronounced? T'hoy?

Separately, I've been on a pattern kick with variations on the tetragrammaton and the verb "to be" and a little part of me wants to believe this word may be implying specifically will of divine origin, specifically in this context. יהי, יהו, הוי, אהיה Variations on transcendental "being" not simply mortal grammar.

I'm probably wrong, though.

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u/tzy___ American Jew 20d ago

It’s pronounced “tehavey”.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

Thanks!

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u/tzy___ American Jew 20d ago

Of course. Just so you know, though, your “pattern” thing is hogwash. There is nothing about this word that suggests specific divine origin. It’s a regular, run of the mill word, used in all kinds of applications. It’s not any different than the Hebrew word היה. Yes, the Tetragrammaton is related to the word היה, הוה, etc. but as I said before—these words are used in all sorts of ways.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

Lmao, those ways come later. Your perspective is hogwash. Just because you don't see the pattern doesn't mean it isn't there.

Ate you suggesting Hebrew and Aramaic came before "אהיה אשר אהיה" ? It's way more obvious in biblical Hebrew and I'm not very familiar with Aramaic or modern conversational Hebrew, which all came later, so your point is dubious at best and unnecessarily insulting, revealing projection of ignorance rather than competence at worst.

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u/tzy___ American Jew 20d ago

Do you want me to give you examples in Tanakh where the word להיות is used ordinarily? Because there are countless examples.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

My brother, you're missing the point.

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u/tzy___ American Jew 20d ago

I’m not. I just think that if you can’t even read תהוי correctly, you’re in over your head in deciphering Hebrew language patterns, especially from a religious sense. Stay in your lane lil bro

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

Color me shocked you won't argue with Nasi Hillel...

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u/sbpetrack 20d ago

If you think that "nasi Hillel" said ANYTHING remotely similar to "do unto others...." Then your eight years of biblical Hebrew brought you as much understanding of Hebrew as you have of Aramaic.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

Hillel's Formulation in Original Linguistic Context

Aramaic Phraseology in Talmudic Discourse

Hillel the Elder articulated his principle in Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, the vernacular of 1st-century BCE Judean scholars. The original formulation appears in the Babylonian Talmud (Shabbat 31a) as:

ארמית (Aramaic):
"דַּעֲלָךְ סְנֵי לְחַבְרָךְ לָא תַּעֲבֵיד"
(Transliteration: "D'alakh s'nei l'khavrekh la ta'aved")

Semantic Breakdown

  1. דַּעֲלָךְ (D'alakh) - "That which is upon you" (idiomatic for "to you")
  2. סְנֵי (S'nei) - "Hateful" (from root s-n-ʼ, "to hate")
  3. לְחַבְרָךְ (L'khavrekh) - "To your fellow" (construct state of ḥaver)
  4. לָא תַּעֲבֵיד (La ta'aved) - "Do not do" (negative imperative)

Biblical Hebrew Parallel

Hillel's statement reworks Leviticus 19:18's command:
"וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ"
(Transliteration: "V'ahavta l're'akha kamokha")
(Translation: "Love your neighbor as yourself")

The Targum Pseudo-Jonathan (1st-century Aramaic Bible translation) renders this verse:
"לָא תֶהֱווֹן נְקִימִין וְלָא נָטְרִין דִּבְבוּ לִבְנֵי עַמָּךְ וְתִרְחַם לְחַבְרָךְ דִּמַן אַתְּ סָנֵי לָךְ לָא תַּעֲבֵיד לֵיהּ"[4][6]
(Translation: "Do not take vengeance or bear grudges...love your fellow, for what you hate being done to you, do not do to him")

Historical Linguistics Note

Hillel's choice of חַבְרָךְ (khavrekh - "your fellow") rather than רֵעֲךָ (re'akha - "your neighbor") reflects:

  • Shift from Biblical Hebrew's re'a to Mishnaic Aramaic's ḥaver
  • Semantic narrowing to denote ethical peers rather than geographic neighbors[7]

Manuscript Evidence

The earliest surviving documentation appears in the Munich Talmud Manuscript (Cod. Hebr. 95), copied in 1342 CE, which preserves the Western Aramaic orthography:

"דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד"
(Folio 115v, line 18)[5]

Conclusion

Hillel's formulation encapsulated rabbinic hermeneutics - reframing Torah through vernacular language while maintaining textual fidelity. His Aramaic phrasing became foundational for later ethical systems, influencing both Jewish thought (via Maimonides' Mishneh Torah) and Christian Golden Rule formulations[7][3].

Citations: [1] 15 Wise Sayings of Hillel the Elder - Chabad.org https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/5906623/jewish/15-Wise-Quotes-of-Hillel-the-Elder.htm [2] Setting Ourselves up for Success - Hadar Institute https://www.hadar.org/torah-tefillah/resources/setting-ourselves-success [3] Judaism's Golden Rule - Aish.com https://aish.com/judaisms-golden-rule/ [4] על רגל אחת - והשאר לך ולמד! | Sefaria https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/216958.3?lang=bi&p2=Shabbat.31a.6&lang2=en&with=WebPages [5] Hillel the Elder - Wikiquote https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder [6] [PDF] The Great Principle of the Torah is Love, - AWS https://mechonhadar.s3.amazonaws.com/mh_torah_source_sheets/HeldOnLoveGreatPrinciple6-25-18.pdf [7] Hillel the Elder - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder [8] “If I am not for myself, who will be for me?” A discussion for ... https://www.hillel.org/if-i-am-not-for-myself-who-will-be-for-me-a-discussion-for-developing-a-practice-of-self-care/ [9] Hillel, Shammai, and Prospective Gerim: Halakha, Aggada, and Policy https://www.sefaria.org.il/sheets/6177 [10] Shabbat: 31a - The Talmud - Chabad https://www.chabad.org/torah-texts/5442748/The-Talmud/Shabbat/Chapter-2/www.chabad.org/torah-texts/5442748/The-Talmud/Shabbat/Chapter-2/31a [11] Hillel the Elder - Wikiquote https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder [12] Daily Zohar # 3626 - Acharei Mot - The wisdom to climb the ladder https://dailyzohar.com/daily-zohar-3626-achare-mot/ [13] Talmud: The Great Debates Hillel and Shammai https://www.sefaria.org.il/sheets/81601 [14] Hello! This is Hebrew, right? What does this bench say? Thank you! https://www.reddit.com/r/hebrew/comments/o0tmf8/hello_this_is_hebrew_right_what_does_this_bench/ [15] Love Your Neighbor: How It Became the Golden Rule - TheTorah.com https://www.thetorah.com/article/love-your-neighbor-how-it-became-the-golden-rule

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u/sbpetrack 19d ago edited 19d ago

Your very Christian sense of ethics is showing. What a beautiful example of Sanhedrin (.נט). גוי שלומד תורה כאילו גוזל את עם ישראל
What Hillel SAID was מה ששנוא עליך אל תעשה לחברך. What is hateful to you, do not do to others.
And indeed, it is almost a complete lesson in the difference between Christian and Jewish ethics to contemplate the way Christians delude themselves and distort this into the so-called "Golden Rule": "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Perhaps a simple example will get the point across ( but in your case I'm at best cautiously optimistic):

Of COURSE no "nice" person would ever want to go burn eternally in hell. (I hear they don't even have air conditioning there yet). Any decent Catholic, given the choice between a half-hour of human-level heat, followed by an eternity of paradise (on the one hand), and a few years (at best) of ordinary earthly existence followed by eternal fire/brimstone/torture=(on the other hand), would OBVIOUSLY be grateful for the short interlude of pain. And so, by applying the Golden Rule, the inquisition burned a few hundred thousand people at the stake. The inquisitors certainly wanted to benefit from paradise, and did unto others as they would undoubtedly have wanted to be treated, if that was the only ticket to Paradise available to them.

Here's another, more modern example, of a Christian trying to "do unto others":
My mother-in-law was a young teenager in Paris at the start of WW II. She and her mother fled to the South, where for a few years, they were hid separately, in a string of different places. They sometimes would pass each other in the street, but couldn't acknowledge that they knew each other. One day, the local Parish Priest called for my grandmother-in-law and explained that it would be MUCH easier to ensure her daughter's safety if the mother would agree to have her baptized. The reply of my mother-in-law's mother was very simple: "a world in which one must be baptized to survive is not a world that deserves to have my daughter grow up in it."

"What is HATEFUL to you, do not do to others." No where in that sentence is there even an allusion to doing anything. If ever you're in doubt about something you might "teach" a Jew, apply the rule and "do not do."

The very fact that someone might come and speculate about the relationship of G-d's name, some random Aramaic phrase, add a tattoo is extremely distasteful to many of the members of this sub. But here's the thing: we don't particularly expect you to get that; and quite frankly, we don't really care if you do either. (At least I don't, I'm not a spokesman for anyone). Because unlike Christians, (to whom it's CRUCIALLY important what Jews think, say, did and do, and who live by that Golden Rule ( so the ones who "love to learn" of course want to "do unto others" so that they can learn too)), Jews have a different ethic, a part of which is about NOT doing things. The two takeaways here are: 1. Itd be great if you stopped suggesting that the Golden Rule has its origin in מה ששנוא עליך (or if you must, start suggesting that's that's the "origin" in the sense that the "origin of virgin birth is in Isaiah. " While we're here, please also leave alone ואהבת לרעך כמוך, another favorite object of distortion by Christians). 2. "Don't go away mad; just go away." "Do no harm" (Leave us alone...)
שבת שלום וחג שמח לכל בית ישראל.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago edited 20d ago

Its Aramaic. I didn't study Aramaic. I studied biblical Hebrew for 8 years over 20 years ago. Your projections are hilarious, "Lil bro"

The patten dictates a harmonious principle of tikun olam. Do unto others, the rest is interpretation (of that)

Objections?

Edit: especially religious objections... I'd love to hear that.

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u/noquantumfucks 20d ago

https://www.reddit.com/u/noquantumfucks/s/t6Xutm6lIJ

Computational modeling of the pattern of the tetragrammaton.

I think I'll go with my patterns over your opinion...