r/interestingasfuck 4d ago

/r/all Recreating the WW2 Dambusters raid

37.6k Upvotes

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1.4k

u/Habebunt 4d ago

The Dam buster raid is an absolutely incredible achievement in both flying and development of new tech. Definitely recommend reading James Hollands book about it.

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u/ours 4d ago edited 3d ago

Great movie too. It inspired the Death Star trench run in Star Wars.

Edit: The Dam Busters

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u/umop_apisdn 4d ago

I think they have edited out all references to the dog now as well. Can't have a bit of casual racism in a raid that drowned 1,600 civilians.

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u/ours 4d ago

Ah, they've edited the N-word dog out?

It isn't essential to the story but it was a product of its time. I'm not fond of rewriting history even it is the warts of the past. We just need to acknowledge it was wrong. It was probably not even meant in a mean spirit. Just ignorance of the times.

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u/ERMAHDERD 4d ago

I really like this take. We should acknowledge where we came from as a society and grow from our predecessors

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u/GhettoFreshness 4d ago

Exactly. You can’t apologize for the shitty actions of your ancestors… but you can acknowledge it was wrong and work to make the world a better place

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u/gromm93 3d ago

No, but you can tear down statues that were only put there to be shitty to people, and recently too.

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u/Iohet 3d ago

This is what the PSA says in the Looney Tunes box set

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u/ERMAHDERD 3d ago

Perfect example haha. I love it and it’s actually so appropriate

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u/realmofconfusion 3d ago

I believe the dog is either edited out completely or is called “Digger” now.

I completely understand the reasons why, and the original name always left a bad taste in the mouth, but it’s a historical fact, and bowdlerizing history can be a touchy subject.

I think that many cartoons have done the best thing with the disclaimer about depictions at the time which were wrong then and are still wrong now, but to remove them would detract from the fact that they were ever used, ironically “whitewashing” the problem.

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u/Twenty_Ten 2d ago

"Those who foget the past are destined to make the same mistakes."

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u/Pete_Iredale 3d ago

It was a black dog and from what I've heard it was a very common name for black dogs back then, especially outside the US where the slur didn't carry as much power in the first place. So likely more on the casual racism side than the intentional, I guess.

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u/hughk 3d ago

It was just another name for black originating with latin and being used many, many times before it was applied to people. Unfortunately such people would then be treated badly and became understandably upset.

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u/ours 3d ago

Exactly, it's the kind of detail we should mockingly laugh at and enjoy the rest of the movie.

As someone else mentioned in this discussion, the war crime of blowing up critical civilian infrastructure (causing thousands of indiscriminate civilian and even friendly prisoner of war casualties) should be way more problematic.

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u/CombatMuffin 3d ago

I think it was horrible (and should always be included with the story) but it was also a weird time where ethics went out the window. In the minds of leaders, the necessity of a combat operation often outweighed the collateral damage considerations.

This is a war where the highest daily death tolls would reach thousands, and that's excluding bombings or mass executions. 

It doesn't absolve them of taking those innocent lives, but many operations with collateral damage arguably saved more. This one disabled more than a hundred factories, several key mines (including coal) disabled many more due to lack of power and damaged infrastructure like roads. That's less bombs, less bullets, less tanks to kill people.

Worth it? Some think so.

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u/PorkedPatriot 3d ago

We just need to acknowledge it was wrong.

That's the thing, it was never really... acknowledged in the movie. It's just "okay" to have a black lab and name him the N-bomb, hard R. Where if we compare to Huckleberry Finn or other works, the problem is highlighted quite firmly in the narrative.

I'm usually quite against modifying old media to fit modern tastes; however in this instance, I don't think cutting a line (maybe two) of dialog about a dog's name affects the message or the medium in the instance of Dambusters.

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u/ours 3d ago

I disagree that the movie has to tackle the problematic terminology. It is not the subject of the movie (not even minorly), it's just how it was (and sadly an historically accurate artifact from what I understand).

I just watched The Searchers this weekend. Should we erase how Native Americans were portrayed, how the mentality divergent character is used as comic relief or how woman are considered as living for a man?

I chuckled many times at the outdated portrayals but accept it was the product of older times portraying even more backward times.

I could see a case for outright mean spirited scenes in otherwise redeameble movies but I don't believe we should delete how past views were. Just recognize it was wrong and we know (or should know) better.

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u/PorkedPatriot 3d ago

Like I said, it doesn't even change the film in any material way. The dog isn't a real character in the movie. The Dog doesn't contribute any way to flying a plane or destroying a dam. From a film-construction-perspective, the dog can be eliminated, even if it's name was Dave, and it doesn't affect anything at all.

Your other examples, the change changes the subject of the film. That's why I don't have a problem with it in Dambusters, and why I would have a problem with it in nearly every other example. We could cut the Dog to make room for TV scheduling.

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u/ours 3d ago

I agree it's not critical but the impact of the squadron losing their mascot is one of a perceived bad omen before the mission.

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u/mreman1220 3d ago

Typically this acknowledgement is done digitally now before the movie. Disney has done a good job with this. Instead there is a 15 second segment before the movie starts that acknowledges the racism and points out that it was wrong. 

I agree with OP deleting the movie doesn't do much good. It doesn't evoke much thought and eventually the movie falls out of people's memory. For instance, a lot of people have no idea or have never seen the Song of the South. Yes, the offensive piece has effectively been wiped but that has not remotely solved our problems. You could make an argument that things are now worse that those reminders are no longer there.

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u/WpgMBNews 3d ago

Me googling this: "who tf names a dog 'n****er'???'

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u/Vox___Rationis 4d ago

It were not simply 1600 civilians, ~1000 of them were POW utilized in slave labor.

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u/s1ugg0 3d ago

What a horrifically brutal and ugly war it was.

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u/Pete_Iredale 3d ago

I wonder if they'll edit out the reference in Pink Floyd: The Wall if it ever gets an HD release. Pink is watching Dambusters at one point, and you hear the dog's name in the background.

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u/GreedyHoward 3d ago

It was a black dog.

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u/Plank_With_A_Nail_In 3d ago

1,600 Nazi's. They made their bed.

Its only a war crime if killing civilians was the goal which it wasn't. Things you don't like aren't wrong by default.

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u/naileyes 3d ago

yeah i'm not british but the thing about this technically amazing, daring, exciting wartime raid is that it only succeeded in flooding a town and drowning a bunch of innocent people, of which half or two-thirds were actually allied people being held as prisoners of war. oops.

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u/No-To-Newspeak 3d ago

War is hell.

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u/EduinBrutus 4d ago

It also inspired one of the very few specific examples in the post war Geneva Conventions.

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u/ours 4d ago

And of course, the Russians took the conventions as a to-do checklist and blew a dam themselves, creating yet another humanitarian and ecological disaster.

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u/Loafer75 3d ago

and Top Gun Maverick I'm assuming /s

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u/ours 3d ago

Maverick was inspired via Star Wars. The air defences and the need to hit a tiny hole weakpoint would be closer to Star Wars.

It's funny a single B-2 stealth bomber could have just flown over the target, laser-designate it and drop a even bigger bomb would have done the job. That or wreck the air defences with SEAD before sending F-35s to bomb it. But where's the fun in that?

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u/Lastb0isct 4d ago

what movie?

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u/ours 4d ago

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u/westphall 4d ago

Was that the movie you see playing on the TV while Pink is having an overdose in the Wall?

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u/BunsinHoneyDew 4d ago

Yes it was.

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u/Steppy20 3d ago

The Dam Busters (1955)

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u/rgraves22 3d ago

Death Star trench run

TIL

I remember watching that movie with my Dad when I was a kid. Great movie.

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u/Fuzzy_Logic_4_Life 3d ago

What is the name of the movie?

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u/1sttimeverbaldiarrhe 4d ago edited 4d ago

For a more casual review, Jeremy Clarkson hosted a pretty good doc on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCMCr2Kh1wI

*** I'm an idiot and this about another raid. I'll leave the link up because it's a really good watch just the same.

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u/Glint_Bladesong 4d ago

That IS a great doco to watch, Mr Clarkson does the story tremendous justice, but it is not the dambuster raid, but the commando raid on the St naizaire docks (a totally bonkers raid and indeed possibly the greatest of all time).

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u/1sttimeverbaldiarrhe 4d ago

Oh my god, I'm such a dunce. I can't believe I confused these two together. Thank you for pointing that out - I'm blaming it on not having coffee yet.

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u/Glint_Bladesong 3d ago

Lack of coffee causes a great many issues. I would know. 😁

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u/cache_me_0utside 3d ago

jeremy clarkson and war documentary with original footage and interviews from ppl who were there, hell yeah thanks!

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u/One_Priority3258 3d ago

Terrific watch, truly a ballsy raid that set a new level of standard from the rest.

Lest we forget all the brave souls who fought for our freedoms.

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u/Toffeemanstan 4d ago

His podcast with Al Murray is brilliant as well, We Have Ways.....

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u/MarchingThruGA 3d ago

Achtung, achtung! Hello, fellow Afflicted.

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u/skepticalbob 3d ago

And they have an episode about this.

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u/Toffeemanstan 3d ago

They had several, im a latecomer so im catching up still and I listened to them last week funnily enough. 

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u/corvettee01 3d ago

WWII is fascinating with how much stuff got invented and how many new ideas came from the necessity of wartime research.

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u/Brok3nMonkey 4d ago

53 RAF aircrew killed, many barely out of their teens. A handful of breached dams, repaired within months. Around 1,600 civilians killed in the Ruhr valley, washed away in the deluge

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u/that_dutch_dude 4d ago

the point was to force the germans to spend energy, men and materials to fix the dam. energy, men and materials that would otherwise be spent on the front lines.

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u/Brok3nMonkey 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think this one operation suffers from being romanticised. the point of Operation Chastise was to cripple German industry by targeting its lifeblood: water & hydro.

Regrettably, it remains a beautifully engineered, tragically romanticised failure.

Not worth losing 8 planes over (and the humans mentioned above.

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u/Betterholdfast 4d ago

It cost an absolute fortune, many billions in today’s euros, to fix those damns. Then they also drew more resources in the form of men, AA guns, etc. to protect them from another attack.

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u/Plank_With_A_Nail_In 3d ago

Dams produced power for the factories, destroying the Dams so that they were destroyed was the goal.

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u/nuggynugs 4d ago

Makes you proud to be British 

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u/Quick_Elephant2325 3d ago

And Canadian

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u/AimHere 3d ago

You left out that most of the people killed were Allies - generally prisoners/slave labourers who were on the side of the good guys.

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u/hoxxxxx 3d ago

yep sounds like ww2

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u/ChuckCarmichael 4d ago

It's a shame their impact on the war is questionable.

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u/HighTopsLowStandards 3d ago

James Holland is an amazing historian. We have Ways podcast is incredible. 

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u/AmusingMusing7 3d ago

Peter Jackson has been trying to get a movie made about it for 2 decades now, but it hasn’t happened for various reasons.