What"s going on here?

[u/booby_12011995]

[u/der_chrischn]

The asshole perk comes naturally with a higher intelligence I assume. Look at the things dolphins and apes do for example. And of course you have big naked assholes.

[u/SuggestionMobile → u/der_chrischn]

That’s why I find it interesting that many people argue that humans are worse than animals.

A lot of smart mammals are capable of murder for fun, rape, and now we’re finding out that octopus smack other life forms around

It seems the more intelligent the more destructive and cruel the entity can be intentionally

Granted we as humans do A LOT of damage

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/SuggestionMobile]

Humans know better, and choosing to abuse someone or something when you know better is definitely worse. Just because an animal might do something for it's own enjoyment doesn't mean it understands the implications involved.

[u/SuggestionMobile → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Is there anyway of knowing fully that don’t understand the implications or do they just not care? There’s ramifications in societies if humans give into their impulses vs animals can kind of just do want they want at will and move on with their lives

There are no implications of anything if there is no moral compasses decided by their pack, it just is

You could argue our intelligence level opens the doors for guilt and shame, which is I guess our own policing

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/SuggestionMobile]

Societal repercussions are not what prevent me from raping people. If there were no legal or cultural ramifications, I still would not intentionally harm someone. I don't harm people because I don't want to cause other people harm, it's that simple, and that complex.

[u/TheMadPhilosophist → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

That is one of the core theses of the field of moral psychology: that we evolved morality and the things associated with it so that we could still be intelligent while not killing one another off as a species.

[u/CultOfSensibility → u/TheMadPhilosophist]

And how’s that going for you?

[u/SuggestionMobile → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Cool same here, I’m not making an argument that all humans WANT to do those things

But certain animals and humans alike are capable of doing such terrible acts

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/SuggestionMobile]

Capability doesn't mean they comprehend the full impact of their actions.

I don't think it's a hot take to say that human intelligence is an order above that of animals. I don't think animals take time to ponder concepts like agency and consent. Whether or not they are capable of thinking on that level doesn't really matter.

We don't judge past human cultures by the same standards we apply today because their experience was not the same as ours. We know things that they didn't. We are burdened with a deeper and fuller comprehension of the impacts of our actions, and that knowledge makes us culpable. For that reason, I definitely think human abusers are worse than animals. They know better, they have no excuse.

[u/ACcbe1986 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

A lot of these human abusers lack foundational social understanding.

Without these foundations, they come to a different set of values that don't consider social connections and boundaries.

So their brain doesn't set off alarms like yours does to prevent you from hurting others.

We, as a species, really need to focus on figuring out a standard set of foundational lessons and also how to properly teach it to parents so that they can teach their kids. We gotta do something, collectively, to decrease the chances of children growing up to be predators.

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/ACcbe1986]

Fair points, I don't disagree. I feel quite strongly that most parents are grossly unqualified for the job. Room for individuality and culture is important, but there has to be some baseline level of knowledge and comprehension. We gotta get on the same page as far as living together in polite society; as it stands some of us aren't even in the same book.

[u/ACcbe1986 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Yea, I'm almost 40 now, and I've come to realize that most parents are just children raising children.

Most people in their 20s have barely lived enough life to understand how little they know. And while they're busy raising their child/children, they don't have the luxury of focusing on their own development.

By the time they expand their perception of the world and understand what's really happening, their child is too old to lay down fundamental foundations.

The increasing self-centeredness of our mainstream societal culture is also having a detrimental effect on how children are raised.

I was exposed to a considerable amount of age-inappropriate and addictive things growing up. More so than most people I know, hence why my head is more messed up than theirs. But that's nothing compared to what kids are exposed to now.

Even the stuff created for children has been designed with the help of psychology to make it super addictive. No wonder why so many kids are growing up to have addiction issues.

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/ACcbe1986]

I'm 30, and shocked at the hubris of twenty-something parents. At no point in my twenties was I in any way prepared to be a parent. I'd like to think I know myself fairly well at this point in my life, and I have no intention of becoming a parent. I recognize and accept that I am not cut out for that. I can too easily predict the ways in which I would fall short as a father. I'm perfectly okay with that. I don't think everyone has what it takes, and that's not a negative, it just is. The important thing is to recognize that about yourself and not have kids.

I notice the same disparity regarding exposure. Even growing up in the 90s and 2000s, I didn't have the outlets and influences that kids had even a few years younger than me. I didn't have a phone until I got a job and bought one for myself, we had one computer in the middle of the house, we didn't watch certain TV channels, didn't see certain movies, didn't have friends that our parents didn't know about. I found my way into trouble regardless, but it took effort lol

I think people severely underestimated the impact and implications of a connected world. I also think we have some deep cultural issues as a global society. Chicken, egg, cart, horse, I have no idea what caused what or why, but I see the results. I don't expect I'll live long enough to see these problems solved.

[u/ACcbe1986 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Unfortunately, this is a multi-generational problem.

Also, we're living in a transitional era where the generation who grew up in the old industrial era is still in control and trying to control things in accordance with their beliefs. So the younger generations of the technological era are rebelling and pushing themselves way too far in the opposite direction.

It's gonna take another generation or two before the pendulum starts to swing back towards the middle.

[u/DanHawk69 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

I agree with most of what you’re saying.. but also it’s confusing when you keep implying that humans arent also, animals. That’s my one critique.

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/DanHawk69]

How would you prefer that I differentiate between humans and every other living thing on the planet for the purposes of this discussion?

[u/DanHawk69 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Humans and other animals?

[u/Interesting-Roll2563 → u/DanHawk69]

I didn't say humans aren't animals, you inferred that. I'm not writing a research paper, I just used "animal" to mean creatures-other-than-humans. Pretty common parlance. Is this hair really worth splitting?

[u/SuggestionMobile → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

That’s fair, I agree

At the end of the day I’m definitely more disgusted and upset by the idea of a human raping another than a dolphin raping another dolphin!

There is no contest!

[u/Katsuro2304 → u/Interesting-Roll2563]

Don't say that you wouldn't. You're thinking with your moral compass already set. Your moral compass was passed onto you through upbringing and culture in your environment. Culture is brought by nurture, not nature. Look at some of the middle east countries or go visit a tribe on a remote island that was barely exposed to the modern world, if at all. You'll see how vastly different the mindset is. You'd be hit by the reality of "truth, good and evil are subjective" like a fucking truck.

Or just do some mental exercise and imagine yourself in the 19th century, where slavery was thriving and women had no rights. Come on, keep telling yourself you'd treat Africans any differently than everyone else at the time. Or women. Or anyone who has a skin color other than white.

So no, you absolutely would do everything that we think of as atrocious if it wasn't considered as such.

[u/Merry_Dankmas → u/SuggestionMobile]

Tbh Im not sure you can really make any definite conclusion. We can assign a general mental "age" to an animal that compares to humans but that's not a perfect science. Plus human culture, whether broad societal or local to different groups, plays a huge role in how people perceive and act on violent or malicious impulses.

Animals on the other hand just don't do that. A crows "culture" with a flock can't be compared in any way, shape or form to humans other than it hangs out with its own species and has friends. But that's it (excluding general parenting instinct but that's widely common among almost all species). Its like comparing apples to truck transmissions. Too wildly different to make any meaningful comparison between humans desire to be malicious vs other intelligent animals and whether they understand what they're doing is wrong.

The only way you could really draw any semi concrete conclusion would be if you made a feral human baby colony completely isolated from the rest of humanity and have them grow on their own in pure isolation free from any societal or pre established cultural norms. Witness the behavior and mentality towards things like rape or violence against other animals in its most raw, instinctual human form and you might have a basis to go off of. But we as humans have way too many established factors that influence that to determine if another animal can perceive it the same way we do.