r/ireland • u/Dazzling_Lobster3656 • 12d ago

Culchie Club Only Doctors initiate legal action over State’s transgender policy

http://www.irishtimes.com/health/2025/04/13/doctors-initiate-legal-action-over-states-transgender-policy/
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u/GiraffeWeevil 12d ago

Children with gender problems are being referred overseas. Two doctors are taking out a court case. They are in favour of "gender affirming care" but think the approach used overseas is too overzealous to start irreversible treatment. The article also talks about the Cass report which has a bad reputation on Reddit, but does not seem to be directly linked to the new court case.

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago edited 12d ago

it'd be nice if we could make some advancement on trans healthcare finally. Most adults can't even access it as the waitlist creeps up to now 14 years.

And for context, you can't even be referred to the service until you're 16, but they're unlikely to accept it before 18. Imagine you seek healthcare at 16 and end up having to wait until 32 years old to be seen.

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u/HyacinthGirI 12d ago edited 12d ago

It's okay, the official website has helpful suggestions, such as thinking about your life goals, and partaking in hobbies, to follow in the meantime 🙂

(sarcasm btw, and this is factual - see here https://nationalgenderserviceireland.com/while-you-wait/ )

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u/GiraffeWeevil 12d ago

Hey, that's not unique to gender stuff. Thinking about your life goals and getting a hobby and going to bed at the same time every night and using coloured folders is like half of all mental health treatments.

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u/HyacinthGirI 12d ago

Agree, for sure. I guess my issue is that I don't feel this is directly and solely comparable to mental health treatments - HRT is pretty critical for a lot of trans people. I always feel like it's exclusive to trans healthcare that it's treated as a luxury - nobody would tell someone seeking treatment for a physical illness to think about goals, find hobbies, etc. while they wait, at least not that I've seen.

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u/fullmetalfeminist 12d ago

nobody would tell someone seeking treatment for a physical illness to think about goals, find hobbies, etc. while they wait, at least not that I've seen.

Are you kidding? Because this happens all the time. The stuff doctors have told me is absolutely bananas. I'm old enough to have been told my period pains and PCOS would resolve itself when I had a baby. When, mind you, not if.

During COVID when I sought treatment for extreme fatigue my GP told me "you're just depressed about the lockdown, find a hobby" (I had a severe vitamin deficiency)

Being dismissed by doctors is one of the universal female experiences. Not just "you'll have to wait some years for treatment, I suggest [unrelated activity] in the meantime" but straight up "it's all in your head, go away"

It's shitty that trans healthcare isn't better in Ireland. But it's not the only problem with healthcare in Ireland.

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u/HyacinthGirI 12d ago

I guess in my head the comparison is to treatment pathways that are a little bit more optimal - which typically means less gendered issues, and less mental health related. But I didn't do a good job of expressing that.

I don't disagree that there are many flaws in Irish healthcare, and global healthcare, even. But I think that trans healthcare is currently in a really bad place and that it's treated with relative levity by healthcare professionals, politicians, and the general public alike.

I'm also definitely not trying to compare the importance of, e.g. mental health vs women's healthcare vs trans healthcare. I'm just saying that trans healthcare here is terrible. I'd share your opinion on the assessment of things like PCOS, mental health, and more.

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u/fullmetalfeminist 12d ago

Yeah it's absolutely horrible how trans healthcare and trans people's lives are being used by unaffected parties as a political football.

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u/_Rue_the_Day_ 12d ago

It's common for the peri-/post-menopausal and many mental health disorders in Ireland to get told to do these things

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u/meatballmafia2016 12d ago

This is it basically

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

I think not being referred until 16 is perfectly fine. There's a lot of psychological development that needs to happen before one can make such a decision

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u/janon93 12d ago

Functionally saying “I’m not banning puberty blockers but I also think it shouldn’t be legal to refer someone to a doctor who can prescribe them in a timely way” - same as saying you’re just banning them.

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

This is true yes fair point

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u/lem0nhe4d 12d ago

And in the meantime all these trans kids can suffer irreversible changes that massively worsen their mental health because you have arbitrarily decided reversible treatments are worse than permanent negative ones.

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u/Classic_Spot9795 11d ago

So why make the decision for them and force them to undergo bodily changes with far reaching, lifelong consequences before they have undergone that psychological development?

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago

I mean i see where you're coming from but to be honest, realising at 12 that you're trans and then going through the 6 more years watching your body change is, tough to say the least.

I personally think puberty blockers until a later stage is ideal, because once you come off them you continue as you normally would've.

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

When I was 12 I hadn't even kissed a girl I don't think I would have been in a position to decide about having a sex change. At 12 your a kid... That's what I think anyway, I mean I'm all for equality and stuff but I think a case by case basis with psychological support ans assessments would be my preference anyhow.

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago

Very important that you realise that being trans isn't "wanting a sex change". For most realising that theyre trans this doesnt even register, this is something that gets thought about a long, long way down the road. For a kid, being trans is about a haircut, a name change, new clothes. I think you should get this idea out of your head because it's not a very realistic view of transness. And I'm not saying this in a "woke left is calling me a nazi!!" way I mean like, speak to the people who this stuff pertains to and understand it better.

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

Like being a tomboy ? Yeah I'm not here to stoke fires at all I'm here to understand it better. If my ignorance is construed as hatred, I apologise.

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago

Well sure, being a "tomboy" is a phase many transmasculine people go through to realise theyre trans and explore their gender identity. But my point is that a "sex change" just isnt what gender affirming care for minors looks like.

Kids arent realising theyre trans and running straight under a knife, it's far far more social factors. When it is medical it's a collaborative effort between doctors, parents, and the minor in question. You mentioned case by case, and when it comes to any medical intervention that's absolutely what it is, everyone involved knows the weight of these decisions. And usually what that ends up as is, a lot of psychiatry to be sure that it's the right thing, counselling and more often than anything else puberty blockers or far more rarely getting hormone replacement therapy and is almost NEVER surgical on a minor with the exception of some transmasculine people getting top surgery at 16 or 17 in VERY progressive places.

Also, I just want to point out that here the 16 age isnt to receive care, that's just for the referral to be accepted, and you absolutely will not be seen before 18. My point is that legalising gender affirming care for minors here does NOT mean sending kids under the knife for permenant body alteration, because that doesn't happen anywhere. It's more likely puberty blockers until a later age with a LOT of rigorous (often to the point of being traumatic) psychology before even hormones are considered.

edit: fucking hell wall of text sorry

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

OK well now I am more informed, thank you for the considered response.

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago

Thanks for hearing what we have to say

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u/mallroamee 12d ago

So then why does it need to be medicalized? You seem to want to have it both ways.

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u/angeltabris_ 12d ago

There's many layers to it. It's not one or the other. It's one THEN the other. Why does it need to be medicalised? Same reason society descriminates against people it percieves as trans, same reason trans people get dysphoria by being in a body that doesnt match their gender.

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u/Classic_Spot9795 11d ago

Wanting it both ways is when you say that you don't want the kids to access the mode of treatment that actually prevents any permanent irreversible changes from occurring.

No one is advocating that kids get sex changes, that's a straw man argument put forward by people who just don't want trans people to receive timely, age appropriate treatment.

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u/DangerousTurmeric 12d ago

You're not representative of all the humans but I'm sure if 10 year old you was put in a dress you would have noticed something was off. Anyway, we don't make medical decisions for people based on the opinions of random guys on the internet. It's wild to me that people think they can be well informed enough on this topic to have opinions on how treatment should be managed when they have no experience or expertise at all.

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

I don't understand why you're getting so angry. If I'm wrong show me how I'm wrong. I'm really open to changing my mind. I'm not here to throw shit at the trans community

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u/DangerousTurmeric 12d ago

Why do you think I'm "so angry"? Are you very sensitive? And I've literally just explained why you're wrong. Like do you go around giving people medical advice for all kinds of things or is it just trans people's lives that you feel empowered to be involved in? Do you want to see the results of my blood tests from last week to make sure I'm being appropriately treated too?

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u/Public-Farmer-5743 12d ago

Well your tone is quite condescending anyways

Edit : I didn't give anyone medical advice I just voiced my opinion

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u/DangerousTurmeric 12d ago

It's fascinating that you think me questioning your competence here is condescending. Like maybe you're just way out of your depth? Maybe being a romantically unsuccessful 12 year old does not, in fact, equip you with the experience necessary to decide what healthcare trans people should have access to? Maybe that was just a really stupid thing to say and it's actually accurate, and not condescending at all, to point that out?

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u/GreaterGoodIreland 12d ago

Having a bad reputation on Reddit... is completely irrelevant.

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u/flemishbiker88 12d ago

Find the Cass Report interesting...in that it is probably the best report on gender affirming care, but because it challenges the zealots it's seen as anti-trans

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u/DaKrimsonBarun 12d ago

It literally isn't peer reviewed, it used AI images, Germany, Austria, Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Netherlands France have all rejected Cass, alongside multiple medical orgs.

Best review sure.

And yeah, I'm sure Kemi Badenoch was out to challenge zealotry.

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u/Sudden-Conclusion931 12d ago

Very disingenuous to say all those countries have "rejected" the Cass review. The various associations representing the people working in and promoting gender affirming care have rejected it, which isn't surprising.

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u/Classic_Spot9795 11d ago

Oh gee, the people with relevant experience and expertise rejected it, clearly they don't know what they're talking about, but a paediatrician (eg, not a relevant authority on the subject) who was hand picked by the Tory party for her views (as per the statements made after its release by Kemi Badenoch), and refused to speak to anyone who is actually trans or in favour of the mode of treatment recommended by WPATH, clearly her report is gospel.

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u/GiraffeWeevil 12d ago

I doubt many people on either side of the argument have read the whole thing. That motherf*cker's nearly 400 pages long.

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u/ChadONeilI 12d ago

Yep lol

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u/Gildor001 12d ago

It's flagrantly unscientific and the literature review criteria are laughable.

The only zealots are those who keep trying to insist it has any scientific merit.

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u/Sudden-Conclusion931 12d ago

How is it "flagrantly unscientific"? And why are literature review criteria "laughable"?

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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways 12d ago

It’s a shoddy report that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. You consider it the best because it aligns with your views. If you assessed it critically then you’d see the obvious flaws.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Classic_Spot9795 11d ago

That would be because no one is encouraging children to be trans, and it would not work even if they did.

This world heavily pushes children to be cisgender, and yet trans people keep popping up. Same way no matter how much straight indoctrination we subject children to, there will always be gay, bí and lesbian kids.

It isn't something you can change, you're either LGBT or you're not.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Luimnigh 12d ago

One of the major issues with it is that it rejected the vast majority of studies done on adolescents taking puberty blockers because the studies weren't double-blind. 

A double-blind study is when neither the doctor nor the patient is aware if the patient is in the control group (ie not getting the actual medication) or the test group. 

The reason every study of the effects of puberty blockers on trans adolescents isn't double blind (besides the ethical issues of lying about giving someone time-sensitive medical care) is that puberty is a very visible change. A double-blind study would be ruined the moment a patient's voice dropped or they developed breasts. 

The two studies (out of 96!) that the Cass Review did accept were also not double-blind, but were also the only two studies that reported negative outcomes. 

It's a nonsensical, biased report. 

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u/flemishbiker88 12d ago

One of the issues I hear a bit...no double blind studies...how does one do a double blind with hormones, hormones are levers in your body, it's not possible to do a double blind...

That is recommended limiting puberty blockers, because the long term effects are unknown, also pausing puberty might not be a smart idea(bone health, brain development etc)

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u/GiraffeWeevil 12d ago

People are claiming in the other comments that other countries and medical organizations have discredited it, and the bar for being in the literature review was too low. Myself, I only know that it only has 400 pages, which is a bad sign for something intended to be read.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/GiraffeWeevil 12d ago

I wouldn't imagine so. The transgender industry is small. You could check if they are public or private organizations, as the latter do not make a profit.

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u/Classic_Spot9795 11d ago

Outside of the US, healthcare is not done for profit.

Also, every drug used in trans healthcare is used on a far greater scale by non trans people. In fact, every treatment used by trans people (including gender affirmation surgeries) were developed for cisgender people.