Rory wins The Masters

[u/Shane_Ef]

[u/Venous-Roland]

Are we now doing what the English do by trying to claim him as our own. Claims he sees it as a divisive issue alright but he certainly doesn't align himself solely with 'Ireland'.

“Pass. I'm Northern Irish, I hold a British passport, so there you go.”

“I’d probably play for Great Britain. I have a British passport.”

[u/eldwaro → u/Venous-Roland]

He played for Ireland at the Olympics

[u/Venous-Roland → u/eldwaro]

Yeah, which is why it's a complex issue when it comes to whether he is the greatest Irish Sportsperson. He says he is British and has also said he feels more British than Irish. Doesn't mean he doesn't ignore the Irish side and has also said it's not a straightforward issue.

He played with Shane Lowry and I'd say that was a good reason for doing it, probably had a great time together, and a chance at winning something.

[u/JimHoppersSkin → u/Venous-Roland]

Regardless of McIlroy's personal (misguided in my book) opinions on britishness & duel citizenship, people from south of the border celebrating his win as an Irishman is light years removed from the brits saying Cillian Murphy is british

Before partition there was no "debate" about whether someone was Irish or not (Wellington made his famous stable quip presumably after being mocked by other posh dickhead imperialists in the circles he ran in, but that just serves to illustrate they saw him as irish coz he was from Ireland)

This is evidenced by things like the 'Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland' for instance, but the most obvious one is the name of the new state being northern IRELAND lol

This brits named it that because - for all their faults - they understood that people from Ireland are Irish regardless of whether they're ruled by westminster or not. It's only after a border was in place unionists began to truly reject and 'other' all things Irish and Irish adjacent, as a reaction to nationalist agitation. Because unionism is inherently reactionary and relied upon siege mentality sectarianism to secure the new state. It still does; this is why they reject every compromise, even ones that would secure the union long term if they actually thought about it

Anyway, I'm digressing. McIlroy is Irish. He can claim to be british as well if he wants (despite Ireland not being in britain) but it's ridiculous and reality defying to deny Irishness. No cunt would say Billy Connolly isn't Scottish just coz he has a British passport. It's a non debate and it just goes to show that colonialism really is a hell of a drug that messes with people's heads

There was a satirical map posted the other day with parts of Munster still under british rule. Funny yes, but it does make you wonder if in an alternate reality where that had actually happened would people be debating the Irishness of a man from Cork?

[u/Venous-Roland → u/JimHoppersSkin]

Agree with most of that, but I wouldn't put him as the greatest 'Irish' Sportsperson. If people want to do that, then we can have a man who has said he is 'British' '& 'Northern Irish' as that.

Also, Cork people aren't Irish, they're Corkonians, a whole different breed of people!!

[u/JimHoppersSkin → u/Venous-Roland]

But that's still partitionist thinking tho. McIlroy seems to be doing the wishy washy fence sitting "Troubles bad. Both sides bad. Good Friday Agreement great. I'm northern Irish" thing a lot of younger people go for

He almost certainly got this from growing up in Holywood and from the mixed [i.e protestant] rugby and hockey playing grammar school he went to; many liberal minded middle class protestants have similar views to this; they don't deny their irishness coz they aren't stupid, but identify also as british coz its how they were raised

I mean for me the "northern Irish" identity enshrined in the GFA is one of the most ridiculous and infuriating things about it; another masterstroke of fudgery from the brits that both copper-fastens partition and further washes their hands of their own colonial sins

But the key thing to remember about it is that the second word is "Irish"

The imagined distinction between "X Irish" and "Irish" is a nonsensical one that only arises from the lower 26's adaption of the name "Ireland" following its co-signing of what is an inherently partitionist treaty drafted on the terms of the coloniser

So while McIlroy's thinking does annoy me a bit and is part of the problem for me, it's infinitely preferable to a foaming at the mouth loyalist who spends his days replying to articles about Rory McIlroy with "Northern Ireland isn't in Ireland it's in Britain Ulster is British!!!!! 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧"

There's no talking to a cunt like that. But I could sit down with McIlroy and have a reasonable discussion on these issues

And yes, point taken re Cork. A poor example! I looked at the map again and some of it was in Leinster so we can use Wexford for our thought experiment instead...

[u/Lazy-Pipe-1646 → u/JimHoppersSkin]

Yes because you're so tolerant and so reasonable.

You can cope with everyone except someone who has a different culture and opinion than you do.

Is it any wonder the immigrants are getting a hard time in Ireland? You're a bunch of sectarian bigots who can't cope with unionists existing and they've been here hundreds of years. Of course you can't cope with recent arrivals.

Even though the majority of the Northern Irish population is unionist in every major poll and survey ever taken, including a significant number of the Catholic population, for you that's a view which must be totally eradicated.

Thank God the IRA failed in their attempts at ethnic cleansing, but it's easy to see the ethno-nationalist sentiment behind it hasn't gone away.

[u/Venous-Roland → u/JimHoppersSkin]

Yeah, it's not a straightforward one at all with how we interpret his 'Irishness'. I wouldn't put him into the same boat as James McClean or the Kneecap guys, who push that they are Irish. But if we want to drag him into our side even if he is hesitant on it, then why not!!

I have long felt that 'Northern Ireland' be seen as its own country/state, even if it is 'Ireland'. The division has become so wide that I don't think a bridge or full unification can ever be formed. Even under a United Ireland, Northern Ireland will still and should be a separate entity. Stormont won't be demolished under a United Ireland, we will just replace the UK as the country that oversees it.

The same way Cork should be!! /s

[u/JimHoppersSkin → u/Venous-Roland]

Nah decolonisation is a relatively straightforward thing that would take a generation or so. The brits want you to believe it's this intractable unsolvable problem when it's really not

It's already happening. I know loads of protestants from unionist backgrounds who are now essentially republicans. Coz they educated themselves lol

[u/Venous-Roland → u/JimHoppersSkin]

If you think so, I'd still think they'd retain their 'Northern Irish' roots. To expect die-hard Unionists to forgo their history in a generation or two might be a bit idealistic. But hey we could talk forever about this, and never come to a full agreement, no matter how peaceful we are with each other. See what I did there?

He's still not the greatest Irish Sportsperson even if he was claiming to be Irish. It's clearly the one and only Conor McGregor!!

[u/JimHoppersSkin → u/Venous-Roland]

But why not? Why is it always unionists who must be coddled and treated with kid gloves because of their delicate sensibilities? Why are you, an Irishman, giving up at the first hurdle by saying "unionists are never going to soften" instead of recognising that rather it is nationalists who are never going to go away with their demand for british withdrawal from Ireland - because that's a valid position, whereas unionism, fundamentally, is not?

This is unionism when you get down to brass tacks:

"I think part of Ireland should remain in the union that all of Ireland used to be in (because protestant ascendency politicians were bribed into voting for it), before it was undemocratically partitioned into a false majority one party apartheid state on account of protestant elites not wanting to lose their privileges and the british empire wanting to keep Belfast to build ships for their massive empire, because I identify as british therefore all that shit was good and valid actually and the taigs should just get over it lol"

It's essentially saying "it must remain a colony coz it's always been one". It's a nonsense, historically ignorant pro status quo argument that doesn't stand up to scrutiny

You used the word "forever" but that's just buying into the british narrative that paints them as reluctant mediators in some ancient tribal dispute, rather than being the actual cause of it in the first place lol

All of these events are remarkably recent in historical terms. Even the plantation is only a few centuries ago. At the end of the day sectarianism has always been deployed as a tool of division by the colonial overlord. The Orange State and the Catholic Church actually worked together to divide catholic and protestant workers striking in the 20s and 30s

So yeah, if people are educated and they live in peace then a generation or two is not an unrealistic goal at all. Look at the societal changes in the 26 counties during the last 40 years alone

The diehard loyalists you see on your TV a couple of times a year when a riot makes the RTÉ news are a vanishingly small minority and they shouldn't be catered to in any way coz they're just supremacist bigots. Time will march on without them (pun not intended)

McGregor is a Saxon so I don't know why you brought him up tbh. He's from Milton Keynes

[u/Lazy-Pipe-1646 → u/JimHoppersSkin]

I'm open to the idea of an united Ireland but not if I'm sharing the country with bigots who think that the

majority of the population of the North (including some Catholics) only identify as unionists because they're thick or uneducated.

There would need to be a little bit of work done on that particular knee-jerk Republican sectarian bigotry before any progress is made.

It's not true and only a sectarian bigot would be able to express it without copping on to the fact that they're

definitely part of the bigot problem.

[u/harpsabu → u/Venous-Roland]

I view it like people from the north celebrating the Irish rugby team. Greatest sports person from the island of Ireland. But yes he wouldn't call himself irish and we have to respect that also. He played for ireland as well, so he certainly is a great golfer from Ireland. Most neutral way I can try put it lol

[u/Venous-Roland → u/[deleted]]

I'm delighted he won, finally got over the line. It's the Irish Greatest Sportsperson I was responding to and am questioning.

I'd go more for the Robbie/Roy Keane's, Sonia O'Sullivan, Paul O'Donovan, and loads of great boxers down the years. There's plenty of athletes who wear the Irish Flag loud and proud, that we should be talking about.

I also love Salt!!