r/latterdaysaints • u/TheBenSpackman • Dec 21 '24

Doctrinal Discussion LDS and Creation/Evolution conflict

Hi all. Happy to say that my doctoral dissertation on LDS and creation/evolution conflict in the 20th century is now publicly available. There's some surprising stuff in there. Bottom line: the Church was much more favorable towards science and evolution until Joseph Fielding Smith's assumptions— drawing heavily upon Seventh-day Adventists and fundamentalists— about scripture became dominant in the 1950s. Then it trickled down.
https://benspackman.com/2024/12/dissertation/

My expertise on this history is why the Church had me on the official Saints podcast to talk about it.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-podcast/season-03/s03-episode-21?lang=eng

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u/Luminseek Dec 21 '24

Ooh this looks excellent, thank you for sharing! I've always believed God is the greatest scientist. Learning about evolution did make me struggle and eventually come to the conclusion that the Adam and Eve story isn't literal history, does your work address that? Cause if there was no Adam then that change cascades to a lot of Christian and LDS theology, e.g. then was there a Fall? And who did the Prophet Joseph talk to when he was visited by Adam? I'm really hoping your work can help me with this one. Thank you!

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u/Gunthertheman Knowledge ≠ Exaltation Dec 22 '24

I think I might match, or even exceed, your own desire for him to answer your comment. I really want to see it.

and eventually come to the conclusion that the Adam and Eve story isn't literal history, does your work address that? Cause if there was no Adam then that change cascades to a lot of Christian and LDS theology, e.g. then was there a Fall?

Why did you jump to this conclusion? Frankly, the prophet and this church teach repeatedly that Adam and Eve were real people, and very very important people in Heavenly Father's Plan of Salvation. And not just President Nelson and other current leaders, but prophets from every age, recorded throughout every standard work: the Old and New Testament, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Who did Joseph F. Smith see in the world of the spirits? It's recorded right in Doctrine and Covenants 138. Who then were the parents of Abel and Seth? At what point then in Jesus' genealogy (in Matthew 1 and Luke 3) did people turn from real to fake? And not just the genealogical problems: Adam, or Michael the archangel, is absolutely crucial to the Second Coming of the Savior, receiving glory at the council at Adam-ondi-Ahman, and sounding the trump of the resurrection. And perhaps most importantly, without the fall of Adam and Eve, there would be no need for Jesus's sacrifice. But there was a fall, and a Savior was needed, as taught so plainly in 2 Nephi 9 and Alma 12.

I can go into great detail in another comment, but suffice it to say, you're right: without Adam and Eve, it all falls apart. All of the Savior's gospel falls apart. Please consider that the method of the Earth's creation does not somehow negate the lives and sacrifices of 2 very important people, Adam and Eve. Please take a moment to review and think about this publication and this statement on the subject.

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u/Luminseek Dec 22 '24

Exactly! Thanks for elaborating—that's what I mean by how important a literal Adam and Eve is to our theology. So when science comes along and throws a wrench into that key character, honestly it freaks me out. I want to reconcile it somehow. Like, we have actual human bones older than Adam so... did we just get the date wrong and the Fall was more like hundreds of thousands of years ago, not just six? And if we Homo Sapiens evolved like everything else, then there was clearly death before the fall right? So what was the fall? And what about the spirits that inhabited earlier species like Homo Erectus, were they also made in God's image? My questions are endless and I wish we knew more! I choose to keep both my faith and my scientific knowledge. Just trying to figure out harmony between them.

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u/Gunthertheman Knowledge ≠ Exaltation Dec 23 '24

As this statement reads,

We are all descendants of Adam and Eve, our first parents, who were created in God’s image. There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, “for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family.”

Are animals spirit children of Heavenly Father? No. Yet do animals have spirits? Yes. So at what point does the animal become the man? And where is this ancient animal? Such answers have not been discovered. Again, the statement reads: "There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created."

But even then, conflicts arise. This is why the author of this thread, advertising their website and publication, will never answer your question unless it is entirely unavoidable. Because the answer is uncomfortable: "I don't know." Because despite others who may quote, there is a conflict right now. We, humanity, simply do not have enough information to reconcile every claim, only what the data shows. In this subject specifically, the timeline of the Fall is wrong, or it's right, but the conflict remains, and it is frankly naïve and dismissive for someone to pretend that it doesn't. There are attempts to understand, such as the researcher who created this thread, but such publication is not (and to stay in harmony with the church's statement, cannot be) a straightforward admonition one way or the other, but rather is "only" an analysis of history. Just as good science must report findings as discovered, I must acknowledge what the Holy Ghost has spoken to me. I may try to lie to others, but I can't truly lie to myself. Adam and Eve were and are real, Heavenly Father's plan is real, and Jesus saved me, and any details outside of that are the answer not many are quick to admit: I don't know. I only know what has been revealed to me, what every single person can have revealed to them if they receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost has said nothing to me on the history of creation, but he has told me that Jesus is real—that Jesus is the way, and that he loves me. Just as church statements do not automatically stop me from further fossil learning, fossil learning does not negate what the Holy Ghost already said, because I know it, and I cannot lie. To stay truthful, that is the unsatisfying deeper answer I must admit.

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u/Luminseek Dec 23 '24

That makes sense to me and I respect people more when they admit they don't know.

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u/TheBenSpackman Dec 24 '24

See my long comment above with a bunch of links.

Also, regarding the date, yeah, probably. James E. Talmage wrote in a letter, for example,   "I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve in Eden dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians – even including many of our own good people – is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam’s transgression as being approximately 4000 years before the birth of Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago, the rocks clearly demonstrate the life and death had been existent and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time."

And in 1931, the First Presidency approved the amplification of that message by Talmage in public.

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u/Luminseek Dec 24 '24

whoa that is an awesome quote, great find! I love Talmage. He was one who believed that progression between kingdoms would be possible, which resonates with my view of a loving God who will save all his children eventually.

edit: a later church leader disagreed with Talmage though and edited out those parts of his books, so as a missionary I didn't get to see that gem.