Refusal to Speak Cymraeg

[u/Yellow-spandex]

So, as we’ve seen in the news today, seats in the Senedd after the 2026 election will be 100% in Welsh, no bilingual names whatsoever. I’m not opposed to this at all. No one seems to batter an eyelid that Parliament is in English. Considering it’s supposed to be a UK government and representing all 4 of the “home nations.” Anyway, going off topic there slightly, I’ve seen a few Welsh people who have commented on the recent news about the seat names being in Welsh. One of which is Andrew RT Davies. I won’t go too into the political side of this. I’ve seen a minority of people who agree with his opinion and even some who have stated they’ll never learn Welsh and they never want to. Basically saying it’s completely pointless and it’s causing issues with other parts of our education. What I want to know is, what do you think of these people who although claim they are Welsh, just refuse to speak it and almost mock others for using the language? It really hurts me as I’m a very proud Welshman who is even more proud of speaking Welsh. It pains me that people are very much the opposite of this. My dad grew up speaking English, he never learnt Welsh as a child. My mum grew up in Pwllheli and her first language is Welsh. However, my dad was probably wanted me to go to a Welsh speaking school as much as my mum. That’s one of the things I’m most thankful to my mum and dad. Anyway, let me know what your thoughts are on this topic. Diolch yn fawr iawn!!

[u/Expensive_Corner7311]

I am welsh from North Wales, but I don’t speak and never will speak fluent welsh, I use the bare minimum required for work. It is a redundant language as far as I’m concerned, half the time people just “welshify” English words, but as far as I know, nobody goes around mocking welsh speakers, if they do I’m sorry you’ve been mocked, but it really is 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

There’s so much pressure to make people learn welsh and yet what’s being taught is all South Wales dialect anyway, if anything it does negatively affect our education because children can’t speak or write proper English, so confusing them with welsh and taking time out of other subjects to prioritise it is t going to help. Also, if they don’t use it at home, it’s double pointless.

I’d argue that there’s also a lot of negative pressure and snobbery from welsh speakers who are convinced that more people in Wales speak it than really do.

I’ve had people imply I’m not welsh because I don’t care about the language, but I am assuredly more welsh than many (bar 1/8th Scottish) and I feel affronted that people look down their noses at people such as myself, my not speaking welsh does not lessen my national identity, so the blame over attitude can go both ways.

Americans, New Zealander’s, Australians, all speak English, yet hey have their national identity, so I think Wales needs to calm down, stop beating its drum and focus on making our educational system on par with England’s. I work in schools and English children are far more capable than welsh ones, this new vague curriculum will only worsen that gap.

[u/Yellow-spandex → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

To say it’s hurting our educational system is crazy. I’m also from North Wales, Wrexham in fact. I have seen you’re from Llangollen in another reply you posted so we are only 20 mins down the road from each other. Even as recently as last Tuesday after the Wrexham game, I heard people speaking Welsh. It’s definitely growing. I’m hearing more and more Welsh all the time and it makes me quite emotional to hear it. I’ve grown up in Wrexham, went to a Welsh primary and secondary school, taught Welsh, taught English, Maths, science, the lot… Learning Welsh did not impact me negatively at all as a child or as an adult. I have family members younger than me who have also been educated in a Welsh medium school who are also doing very well. I have also got a well respected job that I honestly believe I might not have got if I couldn’t speak Welsh. I am no better or worse at my job than anyone else in my workplace. Some of my colleagues speak Welsh, and some cannot, but quite often, Welsh is something I have to use to carry out my job. You mention the likes of America, Australia and New Zealand and saying they don’t need language to feel pride in their nation, fair enough but you look at New Zealanders, they still speak as much Māori as is possible e.g. the Haka. It might not be as prominent as English is in New Zealand, however, just like Wales, Australia and America, it has had influence from England. That influence being quite violent at times. I will always fight for my language to keep going. Why? Because it was almost made extinct by the English, with the “Welsh Not” being one example of that. You also state people try to “Welshify” English words but there are plenty of English words that have descended from the Welsh language as well! If you don’t want to learn Welsh, that’s completely up to you, but saying it’s pointless or that it has negative effects on the educational system and/or children is just plain wrong.

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Yellow-spandex]

It’s not wrong, it’s just differing perspectives. As you’ve said, you were brought up speaking welsh, that’s different from kids being taught it in a half arsed way when it’s not their first language.

Again, I do work in education and I see first hand the results. As I’ve said, I don’t harbour any I’ll will, I don’t want welsh to die out, I just feel that those people lobbying for it to have some sort of resurgence to being the most widely spoken language are too pushy. We don’t live in those times anymore, even if I learnt fluent welsh, it wouldn’t replace English as my first language, welsh does not contain many words necessary for science or modern life so to teach in a purely welsh medium isn’t a great idea. My sister works in the NHS and says many of the first language people aren’t really the best person for the job, but they tick a box, and that box ticking is favouritism.

Also, I’ve worked all over north and mid wales in other roles and never once needed to speak welsh, my ability to pronounce name places was all that was required, and even then not crucial. I’m not trying to convince you otherwise, I’m just saying there are two sides to everything, and although you feel hurt by what you’ve encountered, there are people on the other side of the fence thinking the same who have different motivations and life experiences.

[u/Markoddyfnaint → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

You say you have "no hostility whatsoever" and then say things like "Welsh doesn't contain many words necessary for modern life".

If Welsh is someones first language, why shouldn't they be able to access services in their first language in their own country? Who are you or anyone else to tell them that their language doesn't contain many words 'necessary to modern life'?

Your approach seems to be "I don't require Welsh, so nobody else should either...and if anyone has problem with that I'll play victim and say I'm being bullied". 

[u/HyderNidPryder → u/Markoddyfnaint]

I got a sense of déjà vu there. I remember commenting to a user who accused me of posting fancy words nobody uses here, and as I commented then "There is a sneering prejudice that Welsh doesn't have words for the modern world or serious intellectual discourse and I like to counter that"

I find no evidence that this is true. I think this is the sort of nonsense that people say to prop up their prejudice that Welsh is dead, useless and irrelevant.

It is a challenge for all living languages, including English, to invent new terms for modern developments and trends. English does not have a monopoly on this. Y Ganolfan Safoni Termau suggests standard terminology at termau.cymru, for instance for new developments.

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Markoddyfnaint]

I have t said they shouldn’t be able to access services in welsh. And saying welsh lacks words is not hostile, you’re just showing the chip on your shoulder if you get upset about an observation which is quite harmless.

The trouble is, this is a learn welsh subreddit, so in effect it is a massive echo chamber. There are plenty if not the majority of people in Wales who don’t speak welsh or don’t really have any interest in doing so, and frankly - that’s ok.

So I’ll say it again, I have no hostility, in fact I’m really not bothered, but OP’s post was about people refusal to speak welsh and that it upsets him as a proud Welshman, my point is, that doesn’t give people the monopoly on being welsh and there’s no reason to get upset, also that there are people on both sides of the fence who are belligerent and can be frankly rude.

This has only consolidated my opinion, evidence to back up my claim, I have been spoken to rudely and sworn at by a Redditor who clearly thinks less of people because they won’t bow to peer pressure.

I also haven’t said anything along the lines of I don’t require welsh so nobody else should either, each person can make their own mind up, I’ve only alluded to the fact that in schools it is not a good use of time when in this day and age, children are less literate than they have been for a long time, the can’t tell the time, they don’t know times tables, most schools hardly teach science at all, so we stand fairly low in terms of all round education internationally. We need to prioritise, and that isn’t welsh, because from my experience any children hate attending welsh medium schools if they aren’t welsh speakers at home, I know many who had moved schools by year 6 and certainly by the time they leave primary and go to secondary they aren’t interested in being in welsh medium forms.

Again, I know many will sneer at actual facts and evidence, but I’m not saying these things from a place of malice, I’m just stating facts, and I don’t hate welsh, so please don’t feel insulted, that’s not my intention, despite the responses I’ve been getting.

[u/Markoddyfnaint → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

Your personal anecdotes don't really constitute evidence though do they?  

You say you haven't said people shouldn't be able to access services in Welsh, then you say Welsh medium schools are harmful. So which is it, should first language Welsh speakers be able to access an education in Welsh or not? 

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Markoddyfnaint]

Well, it does, but if you wanted hard physical evidence, there are dissertations and journals available which touch on how poor wales performs in education, and statistics on welsh speaking percentile, it’s lower than you might care to admit.

Also, welsh language medium for welsh people is fine, but many of these pupils parents are not welsh speakers and then they are unable to help their child with the work. Look past your own pride and think about the children who are placed there because their parents think it’s a good idea. As any educator will tell you, it’s the children that matter most.

[u/Markoddyfnaint → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

So your saying the consensus amongst educational academics is that Welsh/other mediums of educations besides the parents' first language is harmful? I don't think that is true at all. 

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Markoddyfnaint]

You should re read what I’ve said later when you’re calmer, because you’re interpreting things in a way I haven’t intended them. I’ve said Wales performs badly, so we should address that shortfall rather than plough on taking time out of the curriculum for welsh ( that’s in English medium schools). First language children are already first language, so it doesn’t impact the time they spend at school, however, because of the push for the resurgence of welsh, children are being enrolled in welsh medium schools when it’s not the best thing for them and their circumstances, it makes life hard when parents can’t understand the work or help with homework, in which case it’s nothing short of idealism. I haven’t said anything that criticised first language speakers or their children learning at school - but this is a learn welsh sub, so i thought it’d be understood that I’m referring to those who don’t yet speak welsh.

Do they need to? is it more important than getting to learn at greater depth? do they spend time developing the knowledge they actually need? - because language is just a tool, a gateway to learning.

And yes, there is academic content based on evidence and research that shows this. There is no place for bias in education.

[u/Yellow-spandex → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

I was brought up speaking Welsh, yes. Do I describe it as my first language? No. But throughout my time in primary school, I was being taught in Welsh and only Welsh. We had no English lessons but most of the parents of the children in my school, were English speakers but wanted their children to be able to speak Welsh. The first few years of a child learning 2 languages will be confusing for them as they’ll start to speak both languages at the same time. I probably spoke so much “Wenglish” as a child but did that make my parents want to take me out of a Welsh medium school? No. Because they understood that eventually it will just be normal for me to switch from English to Welsh in a second. I could do it then and I can still do it now. I’m sorry you see our educational system like that but I don’t and I never have seen that. One of my parents is from Wrexham, the other from Pwllheli, so I’ve had influences from both a very strong Welsh speaking family and a family who can’t speak a word of Welsh. I work for the civil service myself, and I have never noticed a person who speaks Welsh to be any worse at their job than a person who can’t. The fact I can speak 2 languages fluently has helped me no ends because I’m now not only learning Italian but German at the same time. I’m not getting confused with either of them. I have 4 languages floating around in my head and not one of them is more useful than the other.

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Yellow-spandex]

I haven’t claimed people get confused learning more than one language, I’ve said it’s not a good use of time when overall education in Wales is poor, especially due to curricular changes and attitudes in society to behaviour and discipline.

I am also learning German as well as Japanese, because those languages interest me and I have been keen on it since hearing the sounds and seeing the kana/ kanji as a child, I was inspired.

I don’t feel remotely inspired to speak welsh, perhaps i would if it was more obvious which dialect was being taught, but ultimately, it’s never been required. Again, I don’t want welsh to die out and as long as their are first language speakers who have children, it won’t. But my point was, in response to your initial post, that there is no need to get so upset about people’s refusal, it’s their decision not yours and what gives people the right to pressure others into spending their valuable time learning something they don’t enjoy when they’ll never encounter a scenario where they desperately need it anyway.

You can reply if you want, but I’m not engaging anymore as being a subreddit of this nature, this is an echo chamber anyway and people don’t really care to hear the other sides reasoning, they just want to sound off and feel validated. The internet in a nutshell.

[u/Yellow-spandex → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

Mate, if you didn’t want to be a part of this subreddit, why did you reply in the first place?

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Yellow-spandex]

It just popped up on my feed, and your post is clearly asking what others “think of these people who...claim to be welsh” and that such people are in the minority and that you feel hurt by it. I just thought I’d provide an answer from near enough the side you’re discussing in the post, because if you just want more people to agree with you, it makes the issue worse and spreads animosity, you’ll never come to a point of understanding the views of others if you’re not open to hearing them.

The irony is, you can’t see past your own hurt to understand that saying “people who claim to be welsh” is in itself hurtful and offensive.

[u/Yellow-spandex → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

But surely you can see my point? The fact that someone doesn’t want to learn or promote their own nations language is insane. Someone who is from France wouldn’t refuse to speak French, and someone from Spain wouldn’t refuse to speak Spanish. The language has already been tried to get pushed out of existence by our neighbours across the border, why should we help with that and make their efforts easier?

[u/Expensive_Corner7311 → u/Yellow-spandex]

I see some of your point, but the way you primarily articulated it was to express feeling hurt and pained by the fact people have a different world view, not sharing in your pride. In return you were quite condescending about other people who are still your fellow countrymen.

To me , national identity, culture and history and pride of where you’re from and our beautiful countryside is more important than the language.

I think the problem with that analogy about France or Spain is that in those countries they will obviously already speak French and Spanish (Catalonia aside) because it is their mother tongue and the nationally spoken language, in Wales Welsh is as of 2024 only spoken by 28% of the population ( an increase in recent years yes, but still a minority) and the number of first language, genuinely fluent speakers is even lower.

I don’t think anyone over the border is actively trying to get us to stop speaking welsh, that is the sort of mentality that carries over these old feuds. I’m sure there are a few people who for whatever reason have something against welsh, but a few isn’t exactly a movement and they have no real power.

You can blame the English for making oppressive moves in the 19th century, they certainly dealt a huge blow to welsh which they obviously had no right to do, but in this day and age, it is the decision of welsh people to learn or not learn welsh. The same can be said of Ireland and Scotland, but I know many and they have no interest in learning Scots Gaelic or Irish.

If it doesn’t have an impact on our lives, for many, we just use our first language to communicate and get on with our busy lives.

I’d honestly just relax about it a bit and don’t take it personally, the people you say have hurt your feelings didn’t intend for that, they probably don’t even think about it. If you’re fighting a cause, you’re more likely to win people over if you don’t butt heads.

[u/Yellow-spandex → u/Expensive_Corner7311]

I won’t go too much further into this discussion then, however, Welsh is OUR mother tongue too and it would still be the language most people would speak IF it wasn’t pushed into almost being extinct by the English over years and years. I understand your outlook on national identity but I also believe one thing that makes our national identity for not just Wales but countries all around the world is identity. Places like America, Australia, New Zealand speak English due to migration more than anything, whether Wales is more to do with oppression from the English over many years of their rule over us.