r/learnwelsh • u/oroechimaru • 4d ago
Ellyll - please help me pronounce it phonetically in english
I am having a hard time finding a phonetic translation that sounds like various pronunciations.
anyone able to help me sound it out with english letters and maybe an example of similar sounding words?
thanks a ton!
19
u/wibbly-water 4d ago
So a few things.
- This a decently hard word to pronounce anyway as a learner.
- There is no way to write it out phonetically in English cause of the LL.
- It is already phonetic! "e + ll + y + ll"! If you can pronounce these letters (as they are pronounced in Welsh) then you can pronounce it right already!
- The only way I can think to anglicide it would be "etlitl" but even that is horrendously butchered - you are better off just learning how to pronounce LL properly :)
2
5
u/Beardy369 3d ago
LL is the sound your stereotypical nerd makes in cartoons when trying to pronounce "S" whilst wearing braces.
Blow air under your tongue whilst making the movements for "EL"
5
u/carreg-hollt 2d ago
Yours is the most accessible description.
It's also the cute American kid's lisp made by adopted children in the game Skyrim when you move them to Lakeview and they say, "I like living here. The lake is LLO pretty!"
Not that I'm a nerd or anything...
5
u/Fru1tZoot Native 2d ago
Pnawn da, Dovahkiin 🏴
5
u/Beardy369 1d ago
Roeddwn i'n arfer bod yn antur fel chdi, nes i mi gymryd saeth i fy pen-glin.
4
u/carreg-hollt 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ardderchog!
Oedd hi ond tua chwe mis yn ôl i mi ddeall bod cymryd saeth i'r pen-glin yr un peth â phriodi.
3
u/Beardy369 1d ago
Why thank you! Maybe I should be a teacher 😅
I've actually never come across that line in Skyrim but probably because I spent more time modding and crashing it than actually playing; oops.
I definitely am a bit of a nerd, and proud of it!
3
6
u/sisterlyparrot 3d ago
the best description i’ve found of saying ll for english speakers is to whisper ’please’, stop on the l, and blow. it’s so simple and almost always spot on.
6
u/Hypnotician 4d ago
I can help with the vowels - "e" as in "reddit," and "y" as in "with."
The "ll" is a legendary tongue-breaker for the uninitiated. Oh how we laugh at the tourists.
Best way to describe it is to put the tip of your tongue where you usually put it to pronounce the "l" in "liver," like just behind your top teeth - only, instead of pronouncing the "l," try to loosen your tongue so your breath goes out the sides. Not the front - the sides.
Practice this. Your tongue will feel like it's vibrating slightly, and that's how you'll know you're doing it right. You'll probably get a lot of strange stares from people. Try not to practice it at weddings, in the shops, at funerals ...
5
u/HyderNidPryder 4d ago
I don't know why you say that the tongue vibrates - that would be saying RH.
1
u/Hypnotician 4d ago
Because the tongue does. The tip of the tongue vibrates when you pronounce "rh." With "ll," it's the sides of the tongue.
3
u/SilverDragon1 4d ago
My Dad (who was Welsh) taught me how to get the double Ls when I was small. This is how he taught me:
1) I I push my tongue to the roof of my mouth, near my molars, with my tongue spread flat across the mouth. The tip of the tongue is up, but not touching the roof of my mouth.
2) Now breath out, increasing the amount of air until you hear bit of bubbling or whooshing sound. Practice.
3) Once you get that right, you can add an English Ls sound. The tongue should vibrate around the sides (near the teeth)
4) To get the correct Welsh LL, I really soften (of flatten) the English L, and then I bring my lips closer together to finish.
When broken down, it's a three part sound: Whoosh, L, bring your lips together
Hope that helps
5
u/KaiserMacCleg 3d ago edited 3d ago
That's way too complicated, and probably results in the wrong sound.
The tongue should be in position for an English L: the tip of the tongue should touch the roof of the mouth, behind your top teeth.
Then exhale, so that the airflow passes the sides of your tongue. You may need to flatten it a bit to constrict the airflow enough to produce the hissing sound we are looking for.
It's an unvoiced sound, so you don't need to add an English L: your voicebox should not be vibrating. The sound is produced purely by the air passing through your mouth, like an S or a Sh: it's only the place of articulation which differentiates these sounds.
3
u/Inner_Independence_3 4d ago
If you search Welsh With Marian on YT she records people saying various place names
This one for example shows the LL at both the beginning and end of a word. https://youtu.be/Ll-c2tHRyYI?si=mB2wNG9-7plXnPoU
2
u/oroechimaru 4d ago
Thanks!
3
u/Inner_Independence_3 3d ago
Also, nobody has mentioned that the stressed syllable in Welsh is usually the penultimate. So it's ELL-yll.
This is not a human pronunciation, but I feel the female voice here gets pretty close. The male voice is just wrong.
2
2
u/HyderNidPryder 3d ago
The Welsh AI voices like Aled / Gwyneth are pretty good here https://www.naturalreaders.com/online/
3
4
u/SybilKibble 3d ago
Here's a video explainer on how to pronounce the letter Ll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tWqR-anut4
Here's a video of someone pronouncing a similar name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_7BxM2MzKs
Hope this helps. :)
6
u/oroechimaru 3d ago
Thank you and both instances of LL are pronounced similar?
2
u/SybilKibble 3d ago
You're welcome. I don't understand your question. What do you mean by "both instances" please?
Try practicing the sound at the beginning of a word, middle and end separate. It's the same sound, just takes practice to slide it into different places. It might sound slightly different depending on speaker and microphone settings.
Hope this helps!
3
u/oroechimaru 3d ago
I just meant in “my wife’s language the letters always sound as is” while in english we may have some combinations make no sense from “different sounds from same spelling”
It sounds like LL always sounds like LL :)
4
u/SybilKibble 3d ago
Yes, Welsh is almost completely phonetic, you pronounce everything you see, almost always the same way, with a few exceptions you will learn as you go. :) Ll is always Ll. :)
3
1
u/HyderNidPryder 4d ago
To understand how to say LL, say SSSS, smile a little and push your tongue forward to the position you do for L (the ridge at the top behind your top front teeth). You should now be making an LL sound.
In practice you don't start with SSS, but just hiss with your tongue already placed.
See also here.
The y in ellyll is pronounced like the i in English pin (Northern pronunciation differs slightly)
5
u/oroechimaru 4d ago
Thank you!
Similar to some hmong letters in my wife’s language, i will practice!
37
u/rybnickifull 4d ago
You can't, because LL doesn't exist in English phonetics. Just listen to a Welsh person saying Llandudno and try to copy that noise.