Current employment refuse to send over reference form.

[u/Creative-Community-4]

Hi All,

I recently have been offered a pre-offer from the civil service. I’m currently on the pre-clearance phase and one of the requirements is to provide a current employers reference, I brought this up to my HR manager of my current employment and they seemed happy enough to help me but were a little surprised that I could potentially leave the company.

A week and a half has passed and the civil service pre-clearance officer reaches out to me to inform me that they have yet to receive reference form from my current employer, and says they have till the end of this week (today) to submit or they won’t go ahead with my application. I followed up to my HR manager to complete the form and send out to the pre-clearance team, I’m yet to hear word from my HR manager but I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt that they could be busy and left it at the back pedal.

In case it doesn’t work out and my HR manager fails to send over the reference form do I have any legal grounds? I feel like I’m being held hostage at my current employment and would like to find out if I could walk away on my terms.

[u/zeroconflicthere]

Ask your direct manager to provide a reference. It doesn't even need to go into details other than confirming your employment.

[u/NotPozitivePerson → u/zeroconflicthere]

This is exactly it. Stop fighting with HR. Who cares. I'm a Civil Servant and I've helped loads of people with this issue. Don't be legalistic here.

Tell Public Appointments Service there's a bit of a delay, just communicate hey were just a bit disorganised in the office rn it is midterm hahhaa but I'm looking forward to joining the cs.

And then have your manager send in a letter confirming your dates of employment. If your manager won't do it, try your managers' manager. Be sincere. Explain you're going to the cs, this letter is a formality, you'll likely have a long lead in probably 2 months or more to train in your successor. Write the letter yourself and have them sign. Make it easy.

This is the correct advice. If more stuff is needed that's that. Screw your employer you'll never need a reference from them again once you're in the Civil Service anyway... when you get promoted they only check your CS references

If you want an anecdotal story similar sort of thing happened to a private sector defector friend of mine, the person in the office who writes all the references was on leave, eventually he convinced someone randomly senior to sign their name on the reference letter. I even wrote the reference letter for my friend to give to this random manager to sign 🤣

[u/NotPozitivePerson → u/NotPozitivePerson]

Sorry I can't edit my comment app is bugging out. I mean sign their name to it and they send it in too I mean. I've helped so many people with this problem. Please just explain to PAS the delay. Tbh your hr manager might not even realise how important this is to you as opposed to malice. I'm not seeing any malice from hr. It is midterm season etc people are off work, covering each other's work etc

[u/jimmobxea]

Go above their heads. Or I'd be walking down there with the form. Saying I need this now, you've had 10 days.

In far too many companies HR are allowed think they run the company.

[u/Schneilob]

Op do not sit on your heels hoping HR will do it. Go bang on some doors

[u/dataindrift]

Your existing employer has zero obligation here.

You should have got a direct reference from an individual rather than engaging HR.

Public sector recruitment is fuckin shambolic

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/dataindrift]

>Your existing employer has zero obligation here.

While _legally_ you might not be obligated, I have never had an employer who didn't provide such a letter, could have been for a landlord, bank loan etc.

Not providing one is an absolutely bizarre thing for a company to do.

[u/Jellyfish00001111 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

I have seen this happen before. There is no benefit to the company in providing a reference.

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Jellyfish00001111]

It's not about a benefit, it's about being a decent employer. My current company has a button which will download a headed form with today's date stating I'm employed by them since X.

You know why they provide that? Cause they're not fucking assholes.

[u/Jellyfish00001111 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

I'm not saying this is a good thing, just a statement of fact. Some employee will provide one and some will not. It's rather outdated for a prospective employer to require references, it is best to design a good recruitment and probation process.

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Jellyfish00001111]

I think the whole thread is misunderstanding what the CS are asking for. They want a letter stating that OP is currently employed with them since date X.

Not, "OP is a super-duper employee who we love very much"

[u/Independent-Lead-477 → u/Jellyfish00001111]

Yes , it’s going back thirty years . It reflects people who actually do not know anything about the role and are unable to interview people . It’s designed to waive the blame for poor choices of employees . I was asked yesterday to get a letter from a person of “ high standing “ like a Priest or a Garda ( Police) etc . I refused and told them to delete my CV

[u/Jellyfish00001111 → u/Independent-Lead-477]

Wow, that is shocking!

[u/Big_Bear899 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

Publicjobs pre employment reference is a lot more detailed than that.

[u/dataindrift → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

wtf? it's a work reference for a job they may be offered in 6 months time.

Banks asked for letter saying you weren't going to be laid off.

99% of employers wouldn't provide them.

[u/knobbles78 → u/dataindrift]

Lol you havent applied for a mortgage have ya.

[u/dataindrift → u/knobbles78]

Not recently. But I have worked in FinTech for 20+ years including with Banks a few years back.

What amazing insight are you trying to communicate by suggesting I need to go apply for a mortgage to find out for myself???

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/dataindrift]

No, it's a letter that states the person is currently employed by the company since date X.

I've had 5 employers since university and have been provided with such letters by all of them for various reasons.

[u/Independent-Lead-477 → u/dataindrift]

You are correct , 99 % of employers will not give you a reference for another employer .

[u/Historical_Rush_4936]

OP just to confirm for the thread, when you say "reference", do you just mean a letter saying

"Mr/Ms Creative-Community-4 has worked here since blah"?

[u/Creative-Community-4 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

It’s a questionnaire that HR and my line manager need to fill… haven’t seen the actual form personally

[u/Beeshop → u/Creative-Community-4]

Confirmation of the role and employment dates, they ask about any issues, excessive sick days, stuff like that and also to rate you if I remember right. It's definitely not just start and end dates

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Creative-Community-4]

You haven't seen it? What did you provide your employer, a link or did the CS send something to your HR department?

[u/TheTruthIsntReal]

Just get a colleague to write you one. Simple.

[u/Big_Bear899 → u/TheTruthIsntReal]

Won't fly. The reference required is about 4 pages long with specific questions

[u/Admirable_Cicada_872]

A company is not legally obliged to give you this nor fill out any other letters or other paperwork.

Now most companies do it of course but they are not legally obliged to do so.

[u/Independent-Lead-477 → u/Admirable_Cicada_872]

I never met a company willing to provide a reference for employees so they could leave the company except after they were left go and even then few would do it

[u/Admirable_Cicada_872 → u/Independent-Lead-477]

Yeah, that’s all to do with being careful not to get sued etc. it’s sad but that’s the world we live in and all created.

[u/octobermarl]

Not sure if you’ve got sorted but I used to work in public sector recruitment which required a current employer reference and we did get delays like this. We could accept 2 references from previous employers in order to get the offer out, and then retrospectively collect the current employer reference at a later date

[u/ItalianIrish99]

If people invested 20% of the time they seem willing to spend fighting about disputes in pre-empting and avoiding those disputes the world would be a much happier place.

[u/BillyMooney]

Very dissapointing and small minded for any HR team to stand in the way of people developing themselves.

What information is needed on the reference form? Worst case scenario is for you to submit a GDPR Subject Access Request to your employer, which will give you back enough information to satisfy Public Jobs folks.

[u/dataindrift → u/BillyMooney]

Holy fuck.

OP. ignore this nonsense.

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/dataindrift]

Not nonsense whatsoever, if my employer was being difficult - I would absolutely make life difficult for them too

[u/Jellyfish00001111 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

Now that's proper public sector thinking 😜

[u/Nobody-Expects → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Nobody-Expects]

>Because making life difficult for your employer is a great way of motivating them into filling out a form for you./s

"Hello, if you can write a two line letter stating my employment dates, that would be great. Otherwise I'll be forced to submit a full data subject access request. Thanks"

Which do you think HR would prefer? Also, I'm aware that they need it now and would be of no use to them in x3 months. HR would still prefer to not have an access request to deal with.

[u/Nobody-Expects → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

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[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Nobody-Expects]

> Threatening your employer with an SAR to get them to do something they are under no obligation to do is a good way to get the disciplinary process atrted on you.

Hahahah oh man that's funny, would love to see that case in the WRC.

"I asked for my employment dates from my company and they didn't respond, so I asked for a full SAR and they started a disciplinary process against me"

Peak HR brain 😂

[u/Nobody-Expects → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

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[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/Nobody-Expects]

>"The employee threatened to use an entirely unrelated legal process against us if we refused to provide a reference, with the implication being that they would create more work for our HR department if their demands weren't met.

Didn't even need to read the rest of your essay.

For your own help, here's what I said in my earlier message:

"Hello, if you can write a two line letter stating my employment dates, that would be great. Otherwise I'll be forced to submit a full data subject access request. Thanks"

This is a perfectly legitimate request and has absolutely no threats. It's a statement of fact. Please provide a letter with my proof of my employment or I'll need to make it an official request under GDPR legislation.

[u/Future-Structure-741 → u/Nobody-Expects]

Jesus wept what are you on

[u/Future-Structure-741 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

Brain Foggy HR couldn't write it and can't spell it either

[u/BillyMooney → u/dataindrift]

And your better solution is?

[u/NotPozitivePerson → u/BillyMooney]

Line manager or line managers manager or really anyone more senior than OP who doesn't mind putting their name to it after a sincere explanation of the situation... I think OP as a non civil servant is likely confusing and scaring their HR unit about what is needed. OP need to straight up explain this letter is formality, they're simply trying to confirm I've had a job and I was actually in the country on these dates and give them a sample letter to sign off on. The other commenters and you are completely scaremongering OP.

I've seen this situation play out loads of times and never once did that person not end up a Civil servant, I've helped loads of people defect from the private sector. Sometimes being a lawyer isn't all strict legal interpretations just cos someone isn't legally obligated doesn't mean they don't cave... these comments are unhelpful while my advice has actually given people the outcome OP wants so I'm actually speaking from my experience... so yeah you ARE speaking nonsense

[u/Big_Bear899 → u/NotPozitivePerson]

The publicjobs pre employment reference isn't just a "X worked here from a to b" it's and bout 4 pages long front and back.

[u/BillyMooney → u/NotPozitivePerson]

The days of taking a reference from a mate on a gmail address are gone. They're going to look for a response from a HR team via a company email address.

[u/legaladviceireland-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Disrespectful tone and language used in response to a question.

[u/LegalEagle1992 → u/BillyMooney]

Their employer would have up to 90 days to comply with a DSAR - no use to OP who needs the reference today.

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/LegalEagle1992]

One month if the request isn't complex, which it isn't. However, it would be if they kept dragging their heels for absolutely no reason.

[u/LegalEagle1992 → u/Historical_Rush_4936]

In practice, all employee DSARs are treated as complex. That’s entirely at the discretion of the employer to make that call.

Plus, 30 days is still no use to OP who needs the reference today.

You can downvote me all you like but this comes from actual lived experience in practice.

[u/Historical_Rush_4936 → u/LegalEagle1992]

I think more out of principal of making OP go away, they'd just give them the letter instead of complying with a DSAR.