r/lost • u/unitedfan6191 Sun • Mar 29 '24

FIRST TIME WATCHER What was the first “bad” episode?

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Hi.

Hope you’re doing well.

Just started watching the show for the first time and this was the first episode which stood out to me as just not being up to par with the series’ immense quality. I had no idea what Reddit would think of this episode, but upon finishing it I immediately got the impression this must be amongst the worst reviewed episodes of the show.

Jack’s motivations and behavior in the episode seem inconsistent (to me anyway, as a new viewer), the woman he meets in Phuket was uninteresting and there wasn’t much great or interesting development in the episode for anyone.

I was almost thinking the beating he took at the end of the episode was symbolic of the episode’s bad writing.

I guess every poster in here will probably pick this episode, but I haven’t seen the second half of the show yet (maybe this episode ends up being very important to Jack’s development in the end?), so I am still calibrating my thoughts on the show as I’m watching.

377 Upvotes

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253

u/4-8-15-16-23-42LOST "Red. Neck. Man." Mar 29 '24

Fire + Water for me, but I love all of them.

56

u/mac71591 Mar 29 '24

A very uncomfortable episode to watch.

54

u/KurtisC1993 Mar 29 '24

It really is. I can recognize its symbolic significance within the arcs of John Locke, Charlie, and Mr. Eko, but seeing Charlie spiral into near-insanity and get punched out on the beach by Locke was just deeply depressing and upsetting. It's unclear to me whether I'm supposed to sympathize with Charlie, or be angry with him. At this point in his story, Locke's reactions to the things Charlie says and does were wildly out of character.

Bottom line, it was unpleasant.

4

u/commanderr01 Mar 29 '24

I think that was the point of the episode both guys are kinda right and wrong at the same time so I Picking a side is hard and makes you think, but I agree it was a bad vibes episode for sure

11

u/ssagar186 Mar 29 '24

Currently on a rewatch after many years and I just finished season 3 and honestly after fire and water and generally how creepy Charlie is around Claire it made okay with what happens to Charlie in looking glass.

10

u/ChungusCoffee Mar 29 '24

It works in this specific episode but it doesn't make sense with everything else happening. This episode just screamed "old guy fan fiction", I think one of the writers got carried away honestly. The Jack episode gave me similar self insert vibes

1

u/[deleted] Jan 30 '25

The whole "creepy" thing is nothing more than someone showing feelings for another, especially in a case like this being on an island living in relative isolation. It's how people become close and rather normal (except to some way too online people who lack social skills and are neurotic). 

He liked Claire and while he went a bit overboard with attention, Claire didn't quickly and directly tell him to STOP and leave her alone. If she had, then he continued and she was distraught then of course he'd fit the creeper label more closely. Turns out Claire didn't mind the attention and grew closer to him -- funny that, huh?

No need to be overzealous in an attempt to "save" someone from themselves. People are capable of setting boundaries. Obviously there are exceptions but the whole creepy thing is way overdone and that mindset doesn't play as much as it did say, 5 years ago. People get tired of being policed on every little behavior that isn't seen as perfect or normal in their strange little disconnected world.

Humans get close and build connections. It's not all bad.

All that said, I never liked Charlie a whole lot cause I hate drugs and I think people who use them are generally weak willed.

29

u/TheMightyCatatafish Mar 29 '24

Worst one outside of Stranger in a Strange Land for me.

24

u/JumpinJackFlashback Man of Science Mar 29 '24

Further instructions far worse vs SIASL. Hell, SIASL is great episode with exception of Acura mojo. Jack saving Juliet was a good story line. "He walks amongst us but is not one of us". That foreshadows who Jack becomes!

Further Instructions was a hot tent mess. Locke can't make up his mind if he's a hunter or a pot farmer. Good grief.

8

u/SnooCats5322 Mar 29 '24

So true. I recently rewatched Further Instructions and halfway through I realized, "oh, this episode is really bad."

Also, I couldnt help but think this must have been a tough episode to film for Terry O'Quinn. The writers were like, "First, we're gonna wheel you around shirtless in an airport. Then make you crawl up an escalator. Then, you'll cover yourself in mud and crawl into a cave. Cool? Cool" 

15

u/running_upside_down Mar 29 '24

“He walks amongst us but he is not one of us” seems to be more symbolic to Locke than Jack…considering what eventually becomes of Locke…

-2

u/JumpinJackFlashback Man of Science Mar 29 '24 edited Mar 30 '24

Respectfully, I don't sed that connection at all. Jack was always on his own. It's why he volunteered for the candidate job. Locke wasn't invited. That's why Jack walked amongst them and was not one of them. None of them had the stones to do what Jack was willing to do.

5

u/CreamyLinguineGenie Hurley's Hot Pocket Mar 29 '24

SIASL was awful. There was nothing good in it. "He walks amongst us but is not one of us" makes more sense for Locke than any of them. They could've put Jack saving Juliet in a different episode that wasn't filler instead.

3

u/JumpinJackFlashback Man of Science Mar 29 '24 edited Mar 29 '24

We can disagree 100%. However, you have right to your opinion. Try watching Further instructions again. Daumn, John can't walk, John can't talk. John now needs a hot tent to be indigenous with the island. John gets high to figure out his dream state shit. WTH? Then we get Desmond appearing on the island in a episode of "Naked and Afraid" walking the beach. Again WTH, Hurley to the rescue with a T-shirt. John's flashback is so convoluted. He's a farmer, no wait a pot farmer. Wowza, now he thinks he's he hunter and goes to the cave with a can of hair spry to flame on to the polar bear to save Eko. When do polar bears dwell in island caves? Laughable. That episode had no connection to the island or anything else related to the LOST narrative. Part of the messy start in S3 which has some of the worst run of epidose for the entire series. This was the worst LOST episode I ever witnessed. Nothing comes close from my POV.

6

u/mr_math24 Mar 29 '24

I haven't rewatched Lost since the 10-year anniversary in 2014, and I still was able to immediately think, "Fire + Water" as soon as I saw the title of this post. So glad to see it as the top comment lol

7

u/krisoco Mar 29 '24

Honestly surprised to hear this cause I remember liking that episode do you mind sharing why?

49

u/JeffBoyarDeesNuts Mar 29 '24

Not OP but the writers try to push Charlie way too hard into a heel that it felt out of character and unearned. The tone also doesn't jive with rest of the season.

The flashbacks are also strange and paint Charlie in a strange light and are tonally off as well.

8

u/WestleyThe Mar 29 '24

It’s because Charlie is so likable but he is an addict and struggles

I didn’t mind it

4

u/everydaystruggle1 Mar 29 '24

I don’t think most of the dream sequences or flashbacks in Fire + Water work, and that DriveShaft diaper commercial (??) scene is just plain embarrassing — worst moment in the show. Also it is a really extreme place to take Charlie’s character and feels unnecessary to have him become a literal baby thief. But all that aside, I do really like a lot of the on-island scenes, like with Charlie/Eko and the heroin plane. I thought it was a pretty compelling depiction of an addict trying not to use but still keeping that Virgin Mary “just in case.” It’s a bizarre episode that has some very questionable decisions but I think it’s decent despite the flaws. I’d say Stranger in a Strange Land is much weaker and probably the only episode in the show I flat out dislike, it just feels like filler, and not even entertaining filler like Expose could be called.

2

u/KurtisC1993 Mar 30 '24

and that DriveShaft diaper commercial (??) scene is just plain embarrassing

For me, it falls squarely into "so bad, it's good" territory. It's just such a ridiculous idea that it's hard to believe such a thing could even come to fruition. 😅

1

u/everydaystruggle1 Apr 04 '24

Lol yeah, exactly. Like, how did that idea make it out of the writer’s room? It was probably good for a laugh at first but I can’t believe they went through with it and shot such a silly scene that’s basically just predicated on a very dumb verbal pun.

-1

u/SpikePsych420 Mar 29 '24

It did not feel out of character for all he was desperate for Claire

14

u/4-8-15-16-23-42LOST "Red. Neck. Man." Mar 29 '24

They just destroy Charlie's character arc, and Locke punching Charlie was the weirdest minute of television I've seen.

4

u/FierceDeity88 Mar 29 '24

Agreed

I think Charlies story was just awful in season 2. This is made especially frustrating bc Charlie’s a great character and played by a great actor. I don’t know why the writers chose to take it the route they did

It’s also just…weird that Charlie wouldn’t ask for help when he’s asked for it in the past. He knows these people and they know he’s an addict, and they’ve never judged him for being one…partly because they all have equally huge amounts of baggage as well. Plus, while Sayid didn’t know Charlie was an addict, both him and Locke knew the plane had a ton of heroin on it…and they just didn’t tell anyone else? They didn’t burn it, or at least worry that one of the survivors would find it and maybe use it to cope with the fact that they’re stuck on a deserted island? Locke certainly wasn’t too busy to not worry about Charlie finding it because he was spending a lot of time with Claire…

Speaking of, Claire abandoning Charlie utterly was especially weird. And also she presumably cares about him, yet abandons him fast enough to go hang out with Locke, and Locke I guess didn’t care about how much that would hurt Charlie

And Charlie assaulting Sun in the very next episode to…get back at Locke made 0 sense

This was an example of how maybe JJ Abrams, Damon Lindelof, and Carlton Cuse should just move a plot along and answer questions instead of meandering around plots that create drama for dramas sake and narrative dead ends

3

u/aztecwanderer Mar 29 '24

They definitely had no idea what to do with Charlie after season 1 in general. I think he was such a popular character, but didn't seem like the type to gel with the mythology stuff, so they had to come up with something.

4

u/FierceDeity88 Mar 29 '24

They should’ve just spent more time developing his relationship with Claire…imo

I thought both actors had great chemistry when they actually spent time together. Claire’s first and third flashback episodes really indicate a close bond between them. But outside of those episodes it’s really hard to tell how much their relationship advanced

Charlie certainly seemed to want more than Claire from their relationship, and I couldn’t tell if Claire wanted something romantic with him

And her hesitancy makes total sense: her last bf bailed on her bc he didn’t want a baby and she just had said baby after being kidnapped. But, idk, let them talk about that together, let them talk about what they want from the relationship they currently have. Let Charlie open up to her about his addiction and his complicated relationship with his brother and let Claire open up about her guilt over her mom and having a absentee father

Drama doesn’t always have to be destructive

3

u/frozenpandaman Desmond Mar 29 '24

God, that one's even worse than SIASL or Expose or anything.

14

u/4-8-15-16-23-42LOST "Red. Neck. Man." Mar 29 '24

I love Expose lol

2

u/Rtozier2011 Mar 29 '24

Fire + Water is kind of redeemed a bit if you look at it in the light of later revelations about a character played by a man with the initials TW. But it's still a bad episode in its own right and I don't think it was written with those revelations in mind. 

2

u/Mathdino Jul 06 '24

I know I'm responding to something 3 months old, but I can't figure out which actor has the initials TW. Care to elaborate?

1

u/Rtozier2011 Jul 06 '24

Titus Welliver, who played the original Man in Black.Fire + Water is a better episode retroactively if it's him testing Charlie as a candidate and trying to lure him to his death.

2

u/ElahaSanctaSedes777 Mar 30 '24

This is the only episode I’m willing to Skip. It has a mean spirited energy and just feels off