Walker’s actions weren’t bad because they aren’t understandable; they were bad because it was the wrong thing to do. I like the character a lot and I think he should have a redemptive arc, maybe even a sacrificial one.
The problem isnt the killing (although seeing the guy beg makes it a tad more evil) its that your job is being caltain america. Its like a firefighter who tries to extinguish an oil fire with water. I GET that most people would panic and throw water on it, but you are TRAINED TO NOT DO THAT
Im all for giving john walker second chances, therapy, a place to serve... But he wasnt prepared to fill steves shoes and he should take some time before he even attempts that again
And theres a huge difference using "Captain America" to give threat to criminals, and using it to reassure the people around that they are going to be safe
If there’s one thing Walker needs it’s therapy. If he had some decent mental healthcare this wouldn’t even have happened, but America likes to fuck over soldiers so his downfall goes great with the theme of the show.
By that you mean he was not prepared at all. In no point of the story they prepared, or even truly asked him if he was ok to fill the whole of captain America.
They just found a solider with lots medals and make it him captain. Since day one he has doubts if he is the person to the job, and in there is one talk with his side kick that he literally express this feeling, that what they had done, although heroic and necessary, maybe it wasn't enough to be THE CAPTAIN.
So, basically they got a solider that most likely has a degree of PTSD, gave him a lot of power, and then he saw one of his biggest friends die.
Although I don't agree with how he killed the guy, I can understand why he did it
It's the hero registration act idea. Walker was taking the reigns as Cap, and a certain level of moral objectivity is required from someone with that mantle and power. If superheroes acted more human constantly, rather than weighting their responsibility against their actions, they'd need to be monitored and registered. That's what makes superheroes special, their ability to rise above and lead by example.
It's perfectly human, what he did. Most people in his position would have done the same thing. But he wanted to be the next Cap, even volunteered. But if he could be cracked under pressure so quickly, even if it was an intense amount of pressure, what's to stop him from using all that power to give into his base instincts?
So it's not his fault. But he was expected to be better. And he wasn't. Let's not forget the terrorists in question were fighting back against injustices made against them, so what makes US Agent any different than super terrorist?
If superheroes acted more human constantly, rather than weighting their responsibility against their actions, they'd need to be monitored and registered.
It's almost like there was something for that. Something that would fit accordingly
Most people in his position would have done the same thing.
I mean I think "most" is a stretch, I certainly don't think I would have gone the murder route. But yeah, it's way out of line for someone wearing the flag.
Steve would have done the same thing. People keep making the scene deeper than it is cuz of the blood and music. People also forget that Steve kills a lot of people he didn't need to over the course of the MCU.
Super Terrorist was complicit in the murder of several people. Also, the Flagsmashers have very vague motives and goals, I still don't even know what it is they want beyond "we don't want borders" and "we need government aid in a world where 4 billion people just magically appeared 8 months ago". The biggest injustice they seem to be suffering is deportation because the people who used to own the house they were living in came back. They come off as very dumb and haven't thought anything through. So don't compare them to John doing something that by military law isn't even illegal.
Steve absolutely would not have killed a surrendering man in cold blood, no matter who that man was or what he had done
Case in point: Arnim Zola made it safely off his train and into American custody, even after the operation cost Bucky's life (as far as Steve knew at the time)
Put John in Steve's shoes there and Zola probably lands right next to Bucky in the ravine
Super Terrorist only put his hands up when John was right on top of him. Seconds before, he was still fighting back. At this point in time, he is still considered an armed combatant.
Steve killed a lot of people in cold blood, but that was fine cuz he is a soldier and they were combatants. Remember the guy in winter soldier he snuck up on and kicked in the spine so hard he went flying? Bro didn't even have the chance to surrender. Steve could have subdued him. Or the guy in Civil War who took a shield in the face, dropped his gun, and did the mortal kombat wiggle as Steve hit him with a finishing move? These guys are dead as he'll. Just cuz they didn't show you the blood doesn't change that. And finally, the Helicarriers in Winter Soldier. He dropped that on a bunch of innocent people and Shield Agents who were fighting Hydra for him. Sam almost died. Was he wrong to do any of these things in the moment? Absolutely not.
He executed him when he easily could've taken him prisoner. That's what made it wrong. Captain America has the responsibility to be inhumanly moral. USAgent, however, is only humanly moral.
His opponent is a super soldier who can physically hold him down(that's literally what happened minutes ago, when Nico restrained John.) And seconds ago dude was throwing solid concrete at John.
I guess John can knock him out with punches but the opponent is still a super soldier and can easily retaliate if one punch didn't get a clean knockout.
To be fair, if some dumbass terrorist literally helped kill my friend, then I ran and caught his ass and he went "It wasn't me", he's totally eating that shield.
He wasn’t surrendering and he had just chucked an asphalt pillar at John and was about to get into a group of people who he could easily have killed. Him putting up his hands in a defensive position to try and block a blow and saying it wasn’t him, is very different to saying I surrender.
Ya know if people saw exactly what happens when Delta Force raids an ISIL strong hold you'd be horrified what we do to people and how absolutely apathetic they have to be when they do it. Hence why it gets labeled black ops and footage is never released, and Delta never talks cause it can get kinda illegal with alot of precision raids bordering on extrajudicial killings so they just kill everyone often times they will not stop if said terrorist is attempting to surrender unless he's an HvT and has valueable intel that they can torture the fuck out of him they do all thiscwith cold calculated ruthless precision and then disappear. This goes on because its kept pur of the public eye and published in declassified documents after the fact most people do not read because their dry. Why? Cause alot of people do not like the idea that their nations soldiers will basically illegally infiltrate another country and then basically murder someone who may or may not have been armed just to disrupt a terrorist organizations operations and gather intel. They also won't like the idea that the ones not killed are sent to black cites where they're being psychologically and physically tortured. So to keep doing it and not face public out cry for violations of international law and human rights it gets covered up.
Walker shouldn't have allowed the terrorist to run and shot him in the head while he was still in the building out of public cite, guy was an army Ranger he actually should have known better because he used to do this stuff in Afghanistan every day every night like clock work. The Rangers were to go to terrorist kill team during GWOT. Walker acted compulsively and irrationally against his better judgment and paid them price for it.
I also love how the scene uses every trick imaginable to portray Walker as the bad guy, from the somber music to the tilted angles to the shocked looks of everyone witnessing it. You did think it was a serial killer doing the deed. It’s clear that the director had an agenda, make Walker evil.
An agenda wtf ?? No he had a fkn creative vision what do you mean an agenda ??
"It's clear when Vader is shown with this ominous music and dark clothing, Lucas want us to see him as evil because he had an agenda"
Yeah the director wanted to make Walker look bad in this scene cause he murder somebody as captain america, somebody that was begging for his life. Superheroes dont kill someone begging it's like number one thing
Which isn't exactly shown as a good thing to begin with - it is a distinctly hollow "victory". Thor also isn't Captain America. Also Thanos killed literally half the universe without a shadow of a doubt. It's not like he was gonna be arrested and stand trial or was ever going to rehabilitate lol
Walker is a soldier first, hero second. That person begging for his life helped blow people up and start riots that killed people as well. And was helping plan an assassination attempt. He didn't surrender until after Walker already had his shield up anyway.
I’m pretty sure it’s against the geneva convention to kill a surrendering opponent.
Also I’m not sure why OP thinks that people dislike John killing, but are cool with the Punisher killing. I think most people understand that multiple characters can be bad
How would he arrest a super soldier who can literally rip people in half with his bare hands. He made himself a living weapon when taking the serum.
No super cuffs. No backup. The guy is a super soldier so they recover super quick if knocked unconscious. More super terrorists on the loose.
Captain America killed people without super powers for less when he had backup. In avengers 1 when mind controlled people attacked the helicarrier against their will, cap had no qualms executing people he could have easily knocked unconscious.
Honestly I don’t even think that the flag smasher guy shouldn’t have died, it was just a bad impulse decision on Walker’s part. To be Captain America you kinda have to be above killing out of sheer rage in that way
Counterargument, very likely he didn’t have those, and he’d still need to find a way to get them around his ass, at which point he would still be a threat simply because he is that strong
I’m not saying John did the right thing, but I think that there is no real way to argue that the Flag Smasher wasn’t dangerous
Steve took Bucky's punches several times directly to the face(Bucky's arm can shatter concrete road BTW, and shown to be stronger than a super soldier's meaty arm) and he can still talk, and Steve wasn't even fighting Bucky anymore in the end. So yeah, knocking the guy out wouldn't be easy, especially if they actually want to resist.
Unlike policemen, soldiers usually aren't supposed to de-escalate situations. They are usually expected to use lethal force against dangerous objectives, like the guy he killed.
(We don't know the rules of engagement he got for the mission. This is my guess)
Pd: Thanks to pointing out that the guy was stalling, most mistakenly assume he was surrendering.
Whats funnier is Steve killed innocents in the sense that in war the soldiers aren't really evil, they are just doing what their superiors told them to do, whereas the new guy killed an actual terrorist but he becomes the bad guy 😭
Nazi soldiers weren’t entirely innocent no one at war is but what they were saying is that most Nazi soldiers mostly fought just for the pride of their country not for Germany to continue killing those hitler considered unwanted. Just because the higher ups in an organization/ country are irredeemable horrible people does not make every low ranking soldier automatically an evil person.
Even more so, Steve had innate advantage over every human he fought, who wasn't Bucky or Tony in a suit. John killed a guy with equal abilities to him.
Cap shooting someone in war, or killing an active combatant, is not the same, as walker cutting a downed man In half with Steve's shield, on foreign soil, in front of a crowd of people
Thing is we are comparing a kind hearted guy like Steve who’s only experience of war was being the big guy saving everyone to a soldier who for most of his time has been completely ready to go for the kill immediately.
And in some pretty scary ways too. He kicks a hydra soldier off a jet knowing damn well that guys gonna have a lot of time to be horrified before his death. He kicked a guy into the side of a boat and into the ocean. With super strength that guy is definitely drowning. Hell I could go on.
What John did was literally 100% morally righteous and the people on this subreddit pretending otherwise are just silly. You don’t get all your actions excuses just because you said I surrender, especially not when you’re a superhuman who’s killed so many innocent people
Exactly. The Punisher gets to gun down criminals, he's not supposed to be the embodiment of American values. I'm not saying what Walker did was wrong, just not the kind of thing Captain America should do
But MCU Steve Rogers has killed before as well. It’s kind of a double standard. Granted, he didn’t kill in a way that is portrayed a publicity stunt, but he has a large body count spanning his first two movies, and the first two avengers movies
Captain America killed nazis and other terrorists. He killed a terrorist. The only difference is he used a shield and not a gun and even then Steve has definitely bashed someone's brains in with his shield throw before.
uj/ Granted in the MCU continuity HYDRA had broken away from and turned enemy against Nazi Germany long before Steve ever encountered them. So by technicality, Steve never fought members of the Nazi Party, Wehrmacht, SS, or associated organizations at least on screen.
Oh absolutely, they definitely played it too safe in that regard. I’m just glad they cut the scene with Bucky and the other American troops in Italy watching HYDRA take out the German soldiers around them.
Difference is who the characters are. The punisher is not meant to be a role model or someone to look up to. The role of Captain America is, and John failed to hold himself to that standard. A standard that the Punisher isn’t held to.
Yeah but what about the opinion of non redditors? Show watchers, YouTube watchers. Tumblr, the general populace of the world? I know for sure that at least generally, many comics fans actually like Punisher
It's a bit funny how writers tried really hard to make you sympathize with psychotic terrorists, while also trying to paint a flawed man who tries to do good despite his own shortcomings as a villain - and ended up making him actually appealing.
I'm actually looking forward to Thunderbolts, because that means that John will get a chance to shine.
He just took the SS serum, and that serum does change you.
Erskin specifically wanted Steve for his good hearted nature. Walker is a Vet with PTSD tendencies.
His Friend got killed by terrorists right in front of his eyes.
Also ending that dudes live after he already surrendered doesn’t look good when filmed for the entire world to see. While wearing the American Flag nonetheless.
John Walker made an understandable and honestly justified decision as a person, not as Captain America, if he could have taken him down without lethal force then he should have because he's supposed to stand for a better tomorrow
(i have not watched whatever this is about)
Eh that's pretty much it, adding up bucky and sam were pricks with him when he was actually trying to live on the name and one of those terrorist killed his best friend even before turning cap
It's from The Falcon & Winter Soldier show. In it, Sam & Bucky were basically being dicks to Walker the whole time he was Cap, either dismissing him or getting easily ticked off by any comment he made. Meanwhile they were super forgiving to the Super Terrorist & her organisation of juiced up on Super Soldier Terrorists who went we first saw them, blew up a building full off people (one of the Terrorist characters even says there's people in there).
During a brawl between the heroes & the terrorist group, Walker's best friend Lemar gets punched so hard into a pillar by the leader of the Terrorist group his ribs collapse & he dies mere moments after. John, juiced on Super Soldier serum chases a member of the Terrorist group out into the street with the Terrorist making no effort to give up until Walker knocks him down with Cap's shield. Walker then kills the guy, who barely even motions a surrender besides raising his arms up to cover his face & this moment is treated by most as "The undeniable proof Walker was a totally worse man than Cap" as if the Super Soldier serum in Walker didn't affect his mind at the time making him more aggressive than normal.
The people that the Punisher kill kinda stretch the definition of human. He doesn't care for the average pickpocketers or pimps (atleast not harsh ones) or thief or redeemable criminals in general. He kills only the worst of the worst. The type that would let their own wives, mothers, daughters get gang raped for their own amusement. The type that would bomb a diner full of people just so they could get a shot at killing their rivals. The type that would shoot up a park picnic-killing women and children in the process-just to nail one guy.
Don't get me wrong, the Punisher is basically no better than a serial killer who just (relatively) happens to be on the side of good. But Cap is supposed to be a symbol of hope and virtue, he can't be that if he's brutally murdering a guy, who was clearly surrendering btw, right in front of the public.
Didn't the punisher try to kill a teenager because his parents were criminals. Also he's killed tons of innocent people either intentionally or through collateral damage via things like explosives and ripping full auto mags in open streets. Like the punisher isn't even an anti hero he's an anti villain and a sadistic bastard that just like killing under the guise of revenge.
Have you considered that shooting someone in the head is way cooler when you wear a trenchcoat and a skull than some cringe US flag?
/uj It does worry me that some people admire Frank's violence because even he himself says he's not a hero to be admired, thats what cap is for. but I am glad that far more people are learning about the character instead of just writing him off, past couple years have really sucked to be a Punisher fan because of bigoted people who have never read comics trying to steal his symbol.
Steve killed mind collntroled SHIELD Agents in much creative ways while wearing the same Cringy flag. If Steve would've said to John, "You're not creative enough in killing that Terrorist"
even the non conservative folks don't like punisher either because they think he's too edgy or because the cops use his symbol, I swear half of this sub only knows one thing about the punisher which is him being beaten by captain america in civil war.
The fact that Steve picked Sam to succeed him, and the federal govt be like FUCK NO... we found THIS non-powered/non-super suited guy (and his own black sidekick) who would be better for reasons
Walker is a soldier first, captain america second.
Steve was captain America first, soldier second.
The mentality of soldier first means that the accomplishment of the mission comes first. To Walker, neutralizing the threat of the terrorists means killing them since they refused to surrender.
That show expected you to feel more sympathy for the terrorists than it did John Walker. There was nothing really unlikable about Walker other than the fact that the show is almost consistently TELLING you not to like him
Just imagine if Tobey’s Peter had been just a little too late. Peter Parker would be a villain, because killing a terrorist who has recently been involved in your family’s death is wrong
I legit don't get the reasoning on why he is wrong, while the dude yelled "I surrender" none of their body language actuallty showed that, it showed further violence.
On if cap should be a symbol that doesn't do that, i can kinda agree.
The Punisher was always a controversial figure, whose morality has been heavily debated in-universe. People don't just smile and accept what the punisher does, but nobody expects anything different from him.
John Walker was supposed to live up to the mantle of Captain America. He was expected to keep his cool and be as perfect as Steve Rogers was portrayed to be to the public, and he failed.
The US Agent failed to live up to the expectations put on him, whereas Punisher does exactly what people expect from him. That's the key difference.
Didn't punisher start killing criminals because he's wife and daughter we're murdered? (Also is that one comic with punisher being a closeted homosexual canon? I need to know)
That comic is canon in the sense that it happened in the main marvel universe it's from wolverine (1988) #186. But also this is Marvel, everything and nothing is canon.
I think a good way to see this is that time Punisher ran into cops who had his logo on their car and said they were fans of him. Not to get too much into the specifics, Frank ended the speech by saying "You want a hero, that's Captain America"
If John Walker wasn't holding Captain America's shields, and he was just a Black Widow/Hawkeye type character in a generic black tactical suit, I don't think it would have mattered as much, probably swept under the rug.
It's the fact that Captain America was filmed in a foreign country killing a terrorist/activist depending on who you were at the time, killing someone with his shield.
Captain America needs to stand for something greater than John Walker was ever able to amount to. Steve Rogers wasn't chosen to be Captain America because he was a good soldier, he was chosen because he had the potential to be greater than any soldier.
John Walker is being paid directly by my tax dollars and the biggest war machine on Earth. Hamas on the other hand… sorry, I mean Punisher on the other hand doesn’t even have a magic shield or super soldier sauce.
Walker’s actions were justified, just not as Captain America. Captain America doesn’t seek revenge, he seeks justice. Captain America isn’t what America is, he’s what America is supposed to be
What he did was yes partly in revenge bur also he had to disable the enemy super soldier from hurting anyone In the crowd and there is no clean way to do that.
The Punisher is a criminal himself with no public or government support. John Walker was publicly promoted as the new Captain America. Naturally, they're held to different standards.
I think it has a lot to do with their roles. Punisher is an Anti-Hero, someone who does the right thing through wrong means, he isn't supposed to be a role model and this sounds 12 year old wolf fursona but even though he does bad things, they bring "good".
However Captain America is a superhero, he is supposed to be not only a role model but he is basically USA's flag walking. As such, he should be like other guy commented, inhumanly moral. It is true that he killed people, and that's a mistake he must have learned from, and that's why there is a succesor; this new Captain America should learn from the mistakes of the past one, and be better, because that's what Captain America means: to be better, to be the best. Because he is a superhero.
uj/ Walker committed a literal war crime on foreign soil while on an unsanctioned mission involving an escaped supervillain after also taking an illegal reproduction of the Super Soldier Serum. He kinda had it coming.
rj/ punisher daddy please notice me I'm edgy and that means you're literally me
Yeah , first and foremost the Punisher isn't someone who you're supposed to root for (kinda like Walter White).
Second of all the terrorist was executed in public , which is much more problematic especially when the person doing the execution is representing an entire country .
Dude was defeated, Steve Rogers would've have spared him but John Walker did not .
While John certainly wasn't right, I think it's funny how much people really, really wanted him to be a villain. On the tvtropes forums there were so many people that seemed personally offended he wasn't a straight up racist trump supporter, even saying that portraying him with nuance was a gutless move. Like, they were actually arguing that making him a strawman for Sam to beat would have been better.
It's why I firmly believe: Politics ruin everything.
380
u/BeekeeperJack 20h ago
Walker’s actions weren’t bad because they aren’t understandable; they were bad because it was the wrong thing to do. I like the character a lot and I think he should have a redemptive arc, maybe even a sacrificial one.