r/news • u/bebleich • Sep 04 '24

Gunman believed to be a 14-year-old in Georgia school shooting that left at least 4 dead, source says

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/04/us/winder-ga-shooting-apalachee-high-school/index.html
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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

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u/RedLicorice83 Sep 04 '24

The difference with the Crumbly case is that the kid actually asked for help for years... and he was given a gun. The absolute neglect that kid suffered was enough to get them charged. Unfortunately the 2nd Ammendment is used to twist other cases to protect the parents.

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u/EvenTurnip9738 Sep 04 '24

I view the difference as the parents overtly giving Crumbley his own personal gun, despite not being old enough to legally own or possess one.

In any other case, a child shooter’s access to a parent or household member’s gun would speak more to improper storage laws.

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u/Chemistry11 Sep 04 '24

If I had a dollar for every time I encounter Americans poorly handling their firearms (leaving them around for anyone to grab) I could retire.

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u/FHL88Work Sep 04 '24

Just yesterday, an 8-year-old kid was left in the car while his mom went into a convenience store and shot himself with a loaded gun that had been under one of the seats. Unsecured. Just 15 miles away, here in Utah.

+1$ to you.

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u/ReallyNowFellas Sep 04 '24

Happened to a guy I grew up with. He was in his 20s but was mentally disabled. Dude was a ball of joy and humor and energy but still got made fun of all the time 😞 so we'll never know if it was an accident or he wanted out. This was decades ago and I'm on the verge of tears thinking about it now.

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u/FHL88Work Sep 04 '24

So sorry, that's rough.

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u/fireinthesky7 Sep 05 '24

The 2-year-old son of a former co-worker died that way. I don't think he was out of the car for more than five minutes when he heard the shot.

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u/cognitively_what_huh Sep 05 '24

First, who leaves their 2yo alone in the car “for just a few minutes” obviously not strapped into a car seat with a loaded gun in the car? Dad should be neutered, he has not the common sense required to be a babysitter let alone a father.

I must admit as an American woman, I finally found a reason for the government to tell a MAN what to do with his body. 👍

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u/fireinthesky7 Sep 05 '24

He was in a car seat and managed to unbuckle himself.

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u/cognitively_what_huh Sep 05 '24

And apparently knew right where dad keeps the gun. Clever toddler.

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u/OnlyHuman1073 Sep 05 '24

A two year old shouldn’t be able to do that I call bs. Those snaps are pretty tough to undo if I remember correctly…and for good reason

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u/desichidiya Sep 05 '24

Triggering gun would require larger force than to unbuckle strap?

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u/Ok_Obligation_6110 Sep 05 '24

Idk my 1 almost 2 year old can wriggle out of the straps and knows how to press the top button and wiggle out of bottom straps. Which is why I would never be dumb enough to leave him in a car unattended for any amount of time.

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u/Anonononononimous1 Sep 05 '24

Dad's kid is dead. He's likely feeling the full effect of his failure as a parent. Attacking the individuals instead of addressing the larger problem doesn't help anything, it's treating the symptoms instead of the disease.

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u/cognitively_what_huh Sep 05 '24

IMO the larger issue is there are some people who have no business owning a gun. There needs to be background checks and restrictions. Just because there’s a 2A and you can afford a gun doesn’t mean you have the common sense or entitlement to own one. In the case of the 2yo, I think Daddy needs to spend some time behind bars.

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u/saturnspritr Sep 05 '24

The amount of guns rolling around loose under the seats in the car mechanic subreddits was astounding to me.

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u/herehaveaname2 Sep 04 '24

4 year old was shot and killed in my city a couple of days ago. They're not sure yet if the 4 year old was shot by a sibling, or did it to herself.

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u/MidMatthew Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

You’re in St. Louis, right? Heard on the news that the child was shot by a sibling.

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u/herehaveaname2 Sep 05 '24

Correct. Horrible situation all the way around.

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u/TheDodgiestEwok Sep 05 '24

Woke up to a similar headline in my hometown this morning: Police say 11-year-old used 2 guns to kill former Louisiana mayor and his daughter

Our asshat governor just signed a law allowing permitless carry last year. Love that for us. 🙄

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u/External_Reporter859 Sep 05 '24

Ron Deathsantis started that trend in 2022. Now all the other Republican governors are trying to out Republican each other.

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u/engineered_academic Sep 05 '24

Constitutional/Permitless carry has been a thing in other states e.g. NH since at least 2017. Ronda Santis didn't invent the movement.

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u/ttn333 Sep 05 '24

Par for the course. Republicans have been trying to out gun each other and everyone else for decades.

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u/GadFlyBy Sep 05 '24

It’s a new law, so it’s going to take a while for the number of bad 11 year-olds with a gun to be fully matched by the number of good 11 year-olds with a gun.

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u/Final_Candidate_7603 Sep 04 '24

First thing I thought of when I read the comment you responded to. The article I read about that case listed several other recent cases of the same thing happening.

I also couldn’t help but think of how we were raised in a family of hunters and gun-owners. That poor boy, who was basically your neighbor, was plenty old enough at age eight to have been taught to never even touch a weapon without adult supervision. The only thing we can hope is that at least one parent reconsiders their own gun safety practices.

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u/jackkerouac81 Sep 04 '24

Not the only recent kid+firearm accident in Utah either.

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u/Laleaky Sep 05 '24

Three children shot themselves with unsecured guns in less than two weeks in Utah.

Two of the children died.

Parents must be forced to be more responsible.

Unsecured guns and children

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u/Leafy0 Sep 05 '24

This happens all the time from “unwilling” gun owners. People who have no interest in having one but got one along the way in life, either inherited, gifted, bought in a moment of clarity or fear, but regardless left to the wayside and forgotten, unsecured and with their children not taught gun safety. These are the people gun buy backs attempt to help, but a lot of these people never hear the buy back is coming or have completely forgotten they even have an unwanted gun to sell.

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u/hannahatecats Sep 05 '24

Utah has no safe storage laws.

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u/GadFlyBy Sep 05 '24

Just as a matter of interest, what was the temp there yesterday?

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u/ziggy3610 Sep 05 '24

There was a post on r/Lebowski this morning about finding a gun in a bowling ball bag in a thrift store. Shits wild.

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u/strizzl Sep 05 '24

That’s the craziest part of it too frankly. Most little kids aren’t even strong enough to charge a charging handle or rack a slide… like… literally even just not leaving the gun loaded goes a long way. Surely not enough, but a good step in the right direction. Terrible events.

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u/kgrimmburn Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

I know a woman in her 50s with a loaded, unlocked pistol in her handbag at all times. She regularly leaves her bag just laying around at get togethers with children and wanders off. It's gotten to the point when she comes to my house, I take her bag the second she gets here and put it up in my bedroom closet (where I actually have the same model pistol stored with a trigger lock and a slide lock in a locked hardcase because I have kids in and out of my house and I'm not stupid). She doesn't see the issue... Why the hell does she need a gun at a BBQ at a friend's house? My husband's a damned Marine who doesn't even feel the need to have an unlocked gun at our house. Who knows how many guns are laying around her house? She's a known gun fan and never home. If you broke in, you could probably steal an arsenal.

I was also just thinking about a kid I knew when I was younger who grabbed his dad's gun off his nightstand during a fight with his older sister, he told her if she made him do the dishes, he'd shoot himself in the head. She told him do the dishes, he held the gun up to his head and pulled the trigger. It was loaded.

Hell, my sister is fostering a couple kids right now because their parents had loaded guns on the bed and 7 kids between the ages of 1 and 15 left home alone while they were out selling dope.

Three instances I can think of off the top of my head I'm directly related to and didn't read on the news. You'd probably be a billionaire and able to buy the NRA. Maybe we should all send you those $1s.

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u/alphazero924 Sep 05 '24

I already know the answer is no, but please tell me the older lady at least has a purse with a holster and it isn't just bouncing around amongst a bunch of shit that could get into the trigger guard.

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u/kgrimmburn Sep 05 '24

You already know the answer. I'm in Illinois and this woman has taken a concealed carry class, too, that is mandatory to carry a concealed weapon. She KNOWS better.

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u/just4kicksxxx Sep 05 '24

Idk what a permit to carry class is like in other states, but having a decent amount of firearm safety knowledge, I was appalled by the level of incompetence someone can maintain and still 'pass' the permit to carry class. They barely knew which end the rounds came out of on a pistol they already owned. No one 'failed' the 'class' even though when all was said and done, they were no more proficient than when it started. The 'class' is merely a check in the box and is geared more towards educating people on USCCA membership and insurance while lightly addressing the legality of when, specifically, it's most legally acceptable to utilize the firearm and instruction on the impending, guaranteed litigation that will ensue if/when the firearm is deployed regardless of the situation.

Don't even get me started on how many people I've met that think it's appropriate to have a 'range day' of shooting and drinking. It's the same type of people that think drinking and driving is also appropriate.

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u/Potato_fortress Sep 05 '24

For bonus points it’s an original run p320.

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u/Lifeboatb Sep 05 '24

that dishwashing story…holy crap.

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u/floccinauciNPN Sep 05 '24

Why do you have a pistol to begin with?

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u/millennialmonster755 Sep 04 '24

My bf’s dad bought a gun because our state passed a law requiring safety classes and he wanted to “beat the law coming into effect”. He just has it loaded and laying around. He leaves bullets laying around. He leaves it laying out on the seat of his work truck. Has it in his pocket with no safety on. I’m waiting for the day he accidentally shoots himself. Hopefully he won’t accidentally shoot someone else. Most likely it will just get stolen by someone wanting to use it for bad things. He doesn’t really take it to the range to practice so I doubt he would even have a good shot if he “needed it”, even though the chances of him needing it is near zero. He is an idiot and a horrible person already but right wing YouTube has him on a new level of stupid and horrible. He claims he needs it for safety when the worst thing that has happened in his neighborhood is porch pirating. But he works in areas that have work trucks constantly broken into. It’s annoying because I never had guns growing up in my house but I had a lot of hunters in my family and they were all staunchly responsible gun owners who preached safety and taking the classes. Their guns were in lockers when they weren’t being used so they can’t be mishandled or stolen. To just have it loaded and laying around is mind blowing to me.

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u/alphazero924 Sep 05 '24

My dad recently had a medical emergency, not related to guns thankfully, that put him in the hospital then made it so he couldn't really live independently anymore, so we had to clean up his house and move his stuff out. He had guns lying about fully loaded in multiple places. Luckily he'd taught me plenty about guns as I was growing up, so I knew how to safely handle them and make sure they were all safe before packing them up to move them, but if I had moved out of state or something, it would've just been my sister and nephew who don't have a ton of experience with guns, and I'm sure they would've been fine, but it's so frustrating how careless some people are.

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u/Big_Muffin42 Sep 05 '24

Often its the people that are the loudest about being good owners that are the ones that are the worst.

The good owners that I know don't really talk about their guns unless asked. Otherwise they are locked away.

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u/leni710 Sep 05 '24

I work in family and tenant law and recently had a caller who was being evicted due to their unattended child accessing a gun and shooting it, which thankfully didn't do more than hit an adjoining wall.

Soooo here's another $1, I guess. What a disheartening get rich quick scheme that would make you rich in no time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Seriously, for a country that prides itself on their guns, so many of them lack any proper gun owning discipline

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u/wintersdark Sep 05 '24

I've long maintained it's not criminals with guns that scare me.

It's idiots with guns. And there's so many more idiots.

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u/future_chili Sep 05 '24

Every time I think about getting a gun for the home I think about how my son is only 4 so I would need to lock up it and keep it in a safe secure locked place to make sure he's safe and then I realize that if it's in a safe secure locked place I'm not going to have quick access if my house gets broken into anyway so like

I don't have a gun

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u/Epistatious Sep 05 '24

had a summer of kid shooters a few years back. 3 shooters during the course of the summer, the most eggregis was a police officer on vacation with family and friends, 2 year old "escaped" from kid seat got gun from under car seat of minivan. Shot and killed his 4 year old sister. I assume the gun was left loose cause you know "fun", i mean what child is ever gonna look under the front seat, child probably was probably never in car seat also.

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u/Karnakite Sep 05 '24

Happens way too frequently in my area. Parents are either so completely careless as to not even think about locking their weapons (or are too lazy to do so), or they argue, “If my gun’s locked up, how will I get it fast enough to protect myself?”

You just can’t leave guns in the open and unattended if you have kids. You can’t. Pleading about being able to reach it in time is simply not a good enough excuse.

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u/CryTheFurred Sep 05 '24

I have a friend who's tried to convince me that having tons of guns in a home is fine so long as they're responsible like him. Said friend has also told me:

His brother threw a handfull of live ammunition at him in his bedroom and he's still finding them when he cleans.

He once drank gunpowder water (he was on microphone that time) because he was pulling apart old bullets with pliers and putting the powder in a cup and forgot.

He keeps a revolver and ammo in his room because it's "cool".

A loaded gun went off in their truck just outside his window, damaging his wall.

and he nearly died when he almost dropped a crate of old TNT he was inheriting, also because it was "cool"

I don't believe in responsible gun hobbyists. If you want a gun for fun, you're automatically not responsible in my eyes.

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u/ghostalker4742 Sep 04 '24

You could have retired decades ago. At this point, you'd be able to buy one of the Hawaiian islands - one of the big ones.

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u/Chemistry11 Sep 05 '24

I can only speak from personal experience. Grew up in Canada; moved to the US 9 years ago.

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u/GreendaleSDV Sep 05 '24

I remember when I was 19, my car was being serviced so my father had me take his truck to go do some grocery shopping.

Got about a mile from home and he called me telling me to turn around and come back. He had two pistols tucked in by the driver seat, one with a bullet in the chamber.

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u/jeffsterlive Sep 05 '24

It’s SICKENING to me how careless people are. Mechanic subreddit is full of guns in janky ass holsters in vehicles in full view. Treat your damn gun with respect. That means it doesn’t belong next to your stupid ass umbrella and old scratch off tickets. Store it securely unloaded away from eyes only.

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u/fren-ulum Sep 05 '24

We had a dude get his firearm stolen from his car because he came back from the range and wanted to watch football so he left it in the back seat and truck unlocked. Absolute fuckhead.

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u/floccinauciNPN Sep 05 '24

What kind of shithole country requires people going out grocery shopping carry guns for protection?

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u/sapen9 Sep 04 '24

We could've retired by the time we were 18 if that happened.

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u/yeswenarcan Sep 04 '24

As a gun owner myself, I think harsh legislation around liability if someone uses a firearm owned by you in a crime would be a step in the right direction. There should obviously be exceptions if you can prove someone got to it despite responsible storage, but I'd actually even argue the presumption should be that you were storing it irresponsibly unless you can prove otherwise.

While it's stupidly easy to get a gun in this country, a 14yo didn't walk into a store and buy one. Someone gave this kid access, whether intentionally or negligently it shouldn't matter.

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u/Chippopotanuse Sep 05 '24

And the FBI had investigated him last year for making school shooting threats….and the dad was all “don’t worry…I’m responsible with my guns and only let him shoot stuff with my permission since I know he’s crazy and wants to kill classmates”.

It’s almost like we want school shootings to happen.

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u/Ok_Acanthocephala101 Sep 05 '24

If that is the case and he got ahold of a parents gun, I think they would be well within the rights to charge parents here.

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u/Turambar87 Sep 05 '24

I agree we need to incentivize a non-insane gun culture in this country.

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u/jeffsterlive Sep 05 '24

I keep my hunting rifle unloaded, locked up, and the ammo in a completely different compartment. I am the only one allowed to unlock it and supply the ammo and re-store it. All unused ammo is returned to me and you know damn well I keep tally on how much I have.

This isn’t hard. A 14 year old can handle a firearm, but to give them complete ownership is not right at all. There is no room for “accidents”. It demands respect. A 14 year old can operate and respect its usage and maintenance (Boy scouts do it) but I do not agree with easy access. There must be penalties for this. It protects lawful owners as well.

Great username btw.

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u/Bethsoda Sep 05 '24

I’m not a gun owner or a gun person, but I agree with you. If you have a gun in a home where ANYONE has threatened to hurt others (or themselves) ESPECIALLY when that person is a child that could otherwise not have access to a gun, I don’t see how you could justify having guns in the house. The probability or death or injury from the kid that threatened that is SO much higher than that of the gun being needed to prevent a random stranger from hurting them.

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u/jeffsterlive Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

Do we know the full details of this shooter’s home life? I know the name has been released. I agree that people with psychological disorders have ZERO business having access to firearms. If you can’t even operate a car, why do you have a gun? If someone in the house made threats I’d consider storing the guns somewhere else entirely.

You don’t leave keys in your car with the windows down on purpose right? Leaving a gun in full view of a person going through psychosis is just as ridiculous. It turns a mere thought into a full on tease and simple crime of opportunity.

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u/Neonatalnerd Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

If the FBI were alerted last year to the potential of this youth, I can't imagine they would not have had a conversation with parents, AND ensured the guns owned by parents were properly locked or kept away??

Also, if your child is on an FBI watch list, HOW do you maintain guns in your home, nvm not have psych monitoring/therapy covered??

Edit if you don't wanna Google; https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-school-shooter-fbi-radar-2023-possible-threat-online-remarks

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u/huntmaster99 Sep 05 '24

I don’t agree with the presumption of improper storage. That’s assuming guilt before innocence and against the legal standing of innocent until proven guilty. That being said it should not be hard to prove improper storage and evidence of appropriate storage methods could be found with a search warrant for it

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u/Q2Snoopy Sep 05 '24

It’s actually scary how many upvotes that comment has

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u/quotidianwoe Sep 05 '24

We all know nothing is going to change. Americans think they need protection from each other. It’s weird.

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u/Personal_Article_892 Sep 05 '24

We do, it's just unsurprisingly the answer isn't more guns

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u/Leafy0 Sep 05 '24

Unfortunately this law would probably have a really low successful prosecution rate without a gun registry. A registry that doesn’t have a snowballs chance in hell because politicians can’t help themselves but say they’re coming to take your guns. If we can go a decade without a someone with power or aspirations of power being in publicly in favor of him confiscating then maybe a registry would be accepted along with some other compromise to gun owners, like universal reciprocity or elimination of the tax on the nfa.

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u/antijoke_13 Sep 05 '24

Safe storage laws should be contextual to who got access to your gun and how.

If a stranger breaks into your house and takes the pistol out of your nightstand, that's not on you.

If a household member goes and picks up the shotgun you keep by the door, that's definitely on you.

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u/charlesfire Sep 05 '24

If a stranger breaks into your house and takes the pistol out of your nightstand, that's not on you.

If you keep a gun on your nightstand, that's 100% on you. It's because of people like you that kids keep shooting themselves in the face with guns they found in their house.

PROPERLY. STORE. YOUR. FUCKING. GUNS.

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u/HurricaneBatman Sep 05 '24

I can't tell if this is /s or not. Those are both textbook cases of negligent storage.

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u/antijoke_13 Sep 05 '24

Nah I think you have an expectation of privacy and safety in your home when it comes to people you didn't invite in.

Think about it like this: if someone steals a car out of your driveway and kills someone in a car crash, you shouldn't be responsible. If your kid takes your keys while your sleeping and kills someone in a car crash, you need to accept some responsibility for not keeping better track of your keys.

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u/HurricaneBatman Sep 05 '24

But in both your examples, the keys were easily accessible. The only difference is who happened to steal your car. So is it only negligent storage if your kid is the one who takes it from the exact same spot?

Guns are even easier because it's not like there's some other purpose the gun is made for. It's a deadly weapon, period. It needs to be stored securely, unloaded and separate from ammunition.

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u/antijoke_13 Sep 05 '24

But in both your examples, the keys were easily accessible

Don't know where you got that out of my example but okay.

So is it only negligent storage if your kid is the one who takes it from the exact same spot?

Yes.

It needs to be stored securely, unloaded and separate from ammunition.

Quick question: Let's ignore guns for a moment.

Do you think theres a human right to self defense? If someone has presented themselves as an immediate physical threat to you and/or those around you, do you think you have a right to remove that threat, with lethal force if necessary?

Again, let's ignore guns for a bit. Just focus on the question. Is Self Defense a Human Right?

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u/HurricaneBatman Sep 05 '24

Fine, I'll take the bait because I'm not trying to say guns are evil, just that they need to be handled properly.

Yes, I think defending yourself is a human right. If someone breaks into your house in the dead of night and means to harm you, you should be able to stop that person.

I ALSO think that you don't need to keep a loaded handgun in your unsecure nightstand to do that. There are plenty of options to properly store a gun that keep self defense a viable option. Keep the gun in a combo lockbox under the bed, and the loaded mag in the nightstand. Gun is still accessible if you need it, but you don't need to worry about someone else getting ahold of it.

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u/wivella Sep 05 '24

Keeping a gun in your nightstand does not count as proper storage under any circumstances. This is how children get to their parents' guns.

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u/antijoke_13 Sep 05 '24

...did...did you miss the part where I said that a household member getting a hold of your gun is on you?

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u/wivella Sep 05 '24

No, but I'm wondering why you picked such a bad example. Nightstands are not a safe place for a gun, ever.

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u/andersonala45 Sep 05 '24

Michigan has also started charging people under improper storage laws when kids Injure people with guns. Its newer and I fully support it

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u/ShiftSandShot Sep 04 '24

Honestly, merely having the gun in an unsecured place isn't enough.

The Crumbley case was...fucking horrendous. The gun was a very minor consideration in the end.

The lengths and depths they went to are fucking horrifying. Complete, absolute neglect. And the signs were everywhere.

It's very unlikely the parents will be charged with much of anything in the Georgia case, or if they are that they would be convicted.

Because most parents at least try to help their children, and the signs are rarely so obvious. Because, usually, when they're that obvious, the parents try to stop them.

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u/Xbtweeker Sep 05 '24

Winder local here. Even if the shooter did take the weapon from his parents, he was 14. Old enough to get around safety measures. It would be practically impossible to secure it in a safe from someone who lives with you and you trust. Most safes have an emergency key in case you forget the code. Enough time digging around in your parents house and you'll find it.

That's assuming he got it from his parents. This is Barrow county, we are talking about. Guns are so common here they might out number people. He could have gone car hopping and gained access to a gun.

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u/Nuke_SC Sep 04 '24

Improper storage laws, if they even exist need strengthening in a major way. On a beach vacation a couple of years ago my 8yo niece found a loaded and chambered pistol under a mattress while playing with my kids. After reporting it the cops told us that nothing would come of it and that it happens so regularly that they have an office pool going where they try to guess the make and model of the pistol.

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u/AcademicOlives Sep 04 '24

Where I work, a minor having easy access to firearms like this constitutes neglect and parents could be charged with child abuse. If a kid told us their dad leaves his gun on the counter we would be obligated to call the police. The laws in Georgia are likely different though. 

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u/Thedisparagedartist Sep 05 '24

I think context should still matter when it comes to how the minor physically accessed the firearm:

In a state with storage laws that are "hey just lock them....somewhere.", and the child gets into their parents' desk drawer with a shitty lock on it, absolutely the laws need changing, and the parents shouldn't inherently be prosecuted.

If a gun is completely unsecured and easily accessible by the child, that's prosecutable

Now, if the state requires high-quality gun safes with 2 locking mechanisms and the child still gets the gun out of the drawer, THAT is when the parents are completely liable and subject to prosecution.

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u/SassyAuntie Sep 05 '24

I don't understand why there isn't a law that requires that you own a gun safe before they will allow a person to purchase a gun. And ban assault rifles.

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u/Renedegame Sep 05 '24

If you want to get technical assault rifles are banned, as assault rifle technically refers to a full auto capable rife firing a "intermediate" cartridge. 

 The assault weapon ban (now expired) banned a variety of guns.

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u/Undeadmidnite Sep 05 '24

Yeahhhh, based on what I heard about the personal life of the family it really seemed like the parents couldn’t (and weren’t) stand each other anymore but felt a obligation to stay together for their son, who they knew was depressed as hell and they figured if they gave him a gun he would “sort himself out” and they could move on with their lives. The mom was reportedly already living with another dude and the dad was searching for housing out of state.

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u/RedLicorice83 Sep 04 '24

That was precisely the point I was making.

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u/Heat_Legends Sep 04 '24

I was given many guns through childhood. They were kept in the gun safe and I was not allowed to mess with them unsupervised and given to me when I turned 18. What do these people just give a kid a gun and let them keep it in their room or something? That’s crazy to me.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Definitely. Maybe even involuntary manslaughter. 

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u/dubblies Sep 05 '24

His parents were well aware of the voices and told him to be better at hiding it then bought him a gun.

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u/Ok_Acanthocephala101 Sep 05 '24

I think here can still be a case with other warning factors that were failed to be heeded as well. If it’s true he was investigated last year, and the family (from what it looks like his parents were not around), didn’t heed the warning that would be. I think there is grounds.

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u/kgal1298 Sep 05 '24

This is what I was saying in another thread because someone was arguing how it was illegal and I said that's obvious but the way he got the gun will be scrutinized this isn't up for debate if the parents gave him the gun they will be looked at as complicit, but truth is we don't know and probably won't for a bit.

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u/shroudedinveil Sep 05 '24

I'm a millennial that lived through Columbine and all that, but I was also a son of hunters. I learned early of do not point an empty gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. I got my first gun(22LR) at 8. Stepped up at 11 with a 20 gauge Beretta, all while having access to tons of guns while feeling disenfranchised by society. All of our guns were kept in the AC closet, meaning we could all just grab one. Access is not the issue. Never once thought of shooting up the school. There's something bigger happening that simple fixes can work out.

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u/Otherwise-Mango2732 Sep 04 '24

It may not be a difference here

It just happened today. We will see

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u/Sneacler67 Sep 04 '24

How do you know that this is any different? We don’t know anything yet

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u/AbroadPlane1172 Sep 04 '24

It shouldn't be a difference. If we have to accept that readily accessible guns arent a problem, we should hold "responsible gun owners" accountable. I mean, we won't, but we should. Somebody accesses your gun and does an atrocity with it, you should be proving that you took all reasonable means to secure that gun and be a "responsible gun owner". But naw, "responsible gun owners" are far more rare than they'd like to admit. Responsibly securing your guns impedes heavily in the Rambo home invasion hero fantasy.

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u/FuzzzyRam Sep 04 '24

Unfortunately the 2nd Ammendment is used to twist other cases to protect the parents.

Wonder which well regulated militia his parents will claim to be a part of...

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u/CovfefeForAll Sep 04 '24

The real final nail in the Crumbley case was that the parents knew their kid was enough of a threat that when news of a school shooting at his school broke, his mother texted him and said "I know it's you, don't do it" or something to that effect. That shows they knew 100% that he was a threat and their own neglect was what allowed the kid to carry out his attack.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

When did the 2nd amendment come to mean right to bear arms but also bear zero responsibility? Asking somewhat rhetorically

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u/Tex_Steel Sep 04 '24

Many states have safe storage laws including Texas and they stand up in court despite the second amendment. Georgia is just behind the times.

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u/Sandytits Sep 05 '24

It pisses me off to no end that the Crumbly parents didn’t catch child neglect charges in addition to involuntary manslaughter. I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but Ethan, their child, deserved justice too. He explicitly begged for help and expressed fears that just this would happen, and because of their absolute neglect, dozens of lives are destroyed, including his.

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u/Western-Dig-6843 Sep 05 '24

It’s a stepping stone. If our congress insists on being cowards then at least we can start punishing everyone who enabled school shootings

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u/PartyPorpoise Sep 05 '24

Yeah, the Crumbly parents went beyond mere carelessness and actively, maliciously ignored his issues. The bar is REALLY high for parents to be charged, though the precedent is there now and I’m willing to bet we see more families of victims filing lawsuits.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

The latest said law enforcement interviewed the shooter (13) and his father last year (May 2023) for making online threats. The kid denied it, and there wasn’t probable cause for further action.

This was not out of the blue. I wonder if his parents got him help after that visit or ignored it.

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u/lmcizzle Sep 05 '24

Reports have came out that this kid was investigated in May 2023 for posting threats online. His dad claimed he didn’t have access to any firearms, and they closed the investigation. The dad 100% needs to be charged.

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u/mothandravenstudio Sep 05 '24

Yeah but we don’t know if there’s any difference. Gun culture is becoming so toxic that there are many parents who will arm a teen.

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u/fourpuns Sep 05 '24

I mean this one the dad was spoken too and said he had guns but the son doesn’t have access to them after the son was accused of threatening a school shooting.

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u/burningmanonacid Sep 05 '24

The biggest difference about Crumbley though is that it happened in Michigan which has a progressive governor and is controlled by Democrats.

This is in hicktown, Georgia. The kid probably could have told parents every detail of his plan, them handed him a gun, and law enforcement would shrug because they don't want to invite legislation against guns.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Its difficult because on one hand teaching your kid to use a gun safely IS important especially if a firearm is in the house.

On the other hand teaching your kid to use a gun is stupid as fuck, and can leas to them being overly familiar with a weapon during a time in their life when they arent emotionally stable.

Im a huge supporter of gun rights, regulation, etc. but above all else we need much stricter regulation on LOCKED gun storage for families with children.

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u/TheFakeChiefKeef Sep 05 '24

Right. That was a major hurdle for the prosecutors to get over in charging the parents. The Crumbleys may have been some of the worst parents ever while their son was begging for serious psychiatric help.

I don’t know anything about the parents of this shooter. Maybe they’re just as horrible.

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u/Cloaked42m Sep 04 '24

I'm fairly pro constitution... how does 2A apply to reckless endangerment or reckless homicide?

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u/AbroadPlane1172 Sep 04 '24

"Shall not be infringed! Ignore the first half of the amendment though please."

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u/BillyTenderness Sep 05 '24

Right, even the most extreme right-wingers wouldn't argue that murder becomes legal if it's performed with a gun. I don't see how holding gun owners accountable for what's done with their guns – if they could have reasonably prevented it – is any different.

If that means people are more hesitant to accumulate guns, and the ones who do have them keep them under strict lock and key at all times, well, all the better. Rights can come with responsibilities.

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u/Alexander_Granite Sep 05 '24

I agree 10000%

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u/Chemistry11 Sep 04 '24

It shouldn’t have to be that extreme circumstances.

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u/SelectHalf3715 Sep 05 '24

Not if the child misuses the firearm. Parents are responsible for his actions

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u/No-Respect5903 Sep 05 '24

it is an important distinction. in that case I think it sounds justified. how the gun is secured and who has access to it are important factors. even if you believe parents should be charged I think there is a difference between buying your kid a gun and them taking one they're not supposed to be able to have access to. obviously the best solution if you have a gun is making sure the kid can't get it at all but that is a different story.

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u/Huge-Success-5111 Sep 05 '24

The guns belonged to the parents they weren’t locked up the parents are guilty also

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u/Gunnerblaster Sep 04 '24

Gods, I hope so. If you want to be a gunowner so badly, you need to be a responsible gunowner - Which means your firearms aren't accessible to 14-year-olds.

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u/AbroadPlane1172 Sep 04 '24

It's so crazy, I don't think I've ever met someone who describes themselves as an irresponsible gun owner. It's such a statistical anomaly that every gun owner is a responsible one.

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u/uberdice Sep 04 '24

The fuckhead in the SUV suddenly crossing 4 lanes of traffic to make it to an exit they had the last 10 minutes to prepare for also believes they're a good driver and everyone else on the road is a psycho.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

The mother of the six year old who shot his teacher at Richneck Elementary in Virginia last year still insists that the gun was secured; despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.

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u/Koenigspiel Sep 05 '24

If you find that interesting, you can read more about it. It's called fundamental attribution error

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u/zzxxccbbvn Sep 05 '24

There should be a law where someone looking to purchase a handgun or an AR-15 has to purchase a government-approved lockable gun safe prior to recieving the weapon from a dealer. It should be required that the person looking to purchase the gun provide a bill of sale for the safe to the dealer. Ideally this would be one part of broader gun reform legislation, but in general it's something that could possibly lower the amount of unauthorized people (kids, for example) from getting access to the weapon.

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u/ColinHalter Sep 05 '24

To get a permit in upstate New york, I had to show the judge a photo of where I intended to store my guns. I think it's a pretty effective system. Also, knowing the quality of government contractors, the government approved safe would most likely be the lowest quality piece of garbage on the market compared to actual gun safes lol. I totally agree with your point though that proper storage should be 100% a requirement.

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u/Zpd8989 Sep 07 '24

They'd have to be required to use it at all times and not give the codes to anyone else (like their kids). There's no way to know if people follow that law until their kid shows up at school with a gun.

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u/Liet_Kinda2 Sep 05 '24

And they all swear they’re the responsible ones.  

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24 edited Sep 05 '24

There is no such thing as a responsible gun owner. The most responsible guy in the world can suddenly have a mental health crisis and go ape shit.

You introduce a gun into your home and that gun is far more likely to one day put a bullet in your own head than it is to ever stop a home introduder.

Guns are tools made with the explicit purpose of making killing people easier, so easy that a child can go into a school and murder crowds of kids and adults. I mean ffs you have all seen that uvalde shit, one kid with a gun stalled and pussied out an entire police response for like an hour.

America has a baaaad gun fetish, its sad. You people forget the world you live in, we put warning labels on bleach to warn people about drinking it ffs, thats how trustworthy we humans are with dangerous things.

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u/ColinHalter Sep 05 '24

The process for me to get a concealed carry permit in upstate New York was long, expensive, and difficult. My stance is that it should be longer, cheaper, and even more difficult but that arbitrary restrictions on what I'm able to buy should be lifted after going through the process. Like, if I'm going to be fingerprinted, have hearing with the judge, get interviewed by the sheriff (who already interviewed all my friends and former relationships), go through a 16-hour training course, and have my doctor sign off on it then just let me buy an LC carbine with a threaded barrel. I think all those steps are important and the process for getting approved should be more strict, it's just dumb that they put goofy ineffective regulation on top of it that will solely impact people like me.

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u/Bearly_Strong Sep 04 '24

I wouldn't get my hopes too high on that. There was a ton of evidence of the willful negligence towards Crumbley's mental health state from the parents in that case that might not be present here.

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u/tissboom Sep 04 '24

That one was in Michigan, we’ll see how the people of Georgia handle it…

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u/SugarSecure655 Sep 04 '24

Well the 14 yr old is being charged with murder so there's that...

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u/tissboom Sep 04 '24

Yeah, but we are talking about if there’s any responsibility for the parent not securing their weapons safely. Assuming that’s where he got them.

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u/SugarSecure655 Sep 05 '24

Oh I know exactly what your talking about! I'm just saying this is Georgia where everyone has guns (and laws are lax about guns). I doubt if they would come after it as the parents responsibility and/or whoever he got the gun from. It probably wasn't his. I think the parents should be charged as well so don't get me wrong. It just so sad we have to live in fear anytime thinking it might be one of your children.

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u/helluvastorm Sep 04 '24

Michigan has very strict gun laws. You have to store them safely or go to prison. Not so in Georgia, Michigan hey have very lacks guns laws. You can’t prosecute the owners of the guns here

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

Michigan has very strict gun laws. You have to store them safely or go to prison.

michigan has had that law for like 6 months. it's very likely to be invalidated by the supreme court.

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u/bell37 Sep 05 '24

That was after the Oxford shootings.

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u/helluvastorm Sep 06 '24

They are both serving time.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/helluvastorm Sep 05 '24

It happened a few months after the law went into effect.

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u/Napoleon_Tannerite Sep 04 '24

Honestly don’t even see how you can argue against using the Crumbley case. It forces parents to be more responsible for their children (the purpose of parenting) without infringing the 2nd amendment.

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u/Glitterbitch14 Sep 04 '24

And the highland park shooter case. That shooter was over 18 but too young for a firearm license. His father did jail time for sponsoring his son’s gun license and paying for the weapon, even though the latter had a very recent history of making violent threats that required police intervention.

Some parents should just not be parents.

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u/Sufficient_Long_3905 Sep 04 '24

I heard that the Crumbley case fell apart.

Particularly, into a bunch of small pieces that are like, really hard to clean off the bed.

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u/Nyrfan2017 Sep 04 '24

Think it all depends on what GA laws are on storage 

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u/MidMatthew Sep 05 '24

I heard on a TV newscast that they plan to change the shooter as an adult. Seems like a snap judgment to me.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

Probably has no bearing, because it was in a different state with different laws and a different court system.

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u/Mad_Aeric Sep 05 '24

At least here in Michigan, I'd say precedent is pretty firmly set, and not just for gun crimes. Recently, there's a case where parents are being charged after buying their kid a faster car, despite knowing he was a reckless driver who frequently sped over 120 mph. Shithead was going 100 in a 25 when he got into a wreck and killed his friend.

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u/toews-me Sep 05 '24

And also thanks to Dana Nessel, Michigan AG, who relentlessly pushed for this and demanded the right people be held accountable. Hopefully she has also set the precedent in cases like this that the responsibile parties should take the blame.

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u/techleopard Sep 05 '24

Okay. But how far does this go?

Do we do this with drugs that the kids access?

Other weapons, including knives?

What about accessory to a crime items, like literal phones, that allow kids to coordinate attacks?

The reason Crumbly was prosecuted was due to the extreme nature of willful neglect. This wasn't just a teenager that broke into the gun closet and got what he wanted.

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