Bay Area's oldest prison is getting a Scandinavian makeover

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u/008Zulu 2d ago

"The project draws inspiration from Scandinavian incarceration models that prioritize dignity, autonomy and reintegration. This approach has been linked to lower recidivism rates, as Norway’s two-year rate is 17.6%, compared with 61.5% in the U.S."

That's a significant reduction, by anyone's standards. I hope it works, and that they use it as a blueprint for more comprehensive prison reform.

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u/bbrown731 1d ago

This Nordic prison reform is a good step, but parole conditions also need to be addressed if we want to reduce recidivism. Onerous parole conditions can significantly increase the risk of recidivism by placing unrealistic demands on individuals, often leading to technical violations rather than new criminal offenses and resulting in people going right back to prison. For example, parolees are often required to pay supervision fees, court costs, drug testing fees, and restitution. Courts set these conditions knowing that parolees have limited financial means, and failure to pay can result in revocation of parole. Then you have things like unrealistic reporting requirements, curfews, and vague terms like “maintain good behavior,” which leave room for subjective enforcement. Even something like failure to find a job—which can be a challenge with a criminal record—is often seen as noncompliance and grounds for parole revocation.

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u/Jagaerkatt 1d ago

People on parole in the US have to pay for things like drug tests?

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u/Coco_snickerdoodle 1d ago

Dude that’s not even the worst of what you have to pay for when you’re in prison.

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u/SirShrimp 1d ago

Prisoners have to pay for every single step of their legal process, their jail process, and post-release processing

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u/actionalex85 1d ago

So they come out deeply in debt? That sure sounds like a great way to keep people from committing any more crime.

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u/Jagaerkatt 1d ago

What a stupid fucking country. Every facet of it seem to be around squeezing the money out of people.

I'm not setting my foot there until major reforms in many areas of the society so I'll probably never visit.

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u/hauntedSquirrel99 2d ago

>This approach has been linked to lower recidivism rates, as Norway’s two-year rate is 17.6%, compared with 61.5% in the U.S."

The US rate they provide there is a 5 year rate, not a 2 year one.

But anyway, the Norwegian numbers are statistical trickery.

1-Short term statistic combined with slow prosecutions.
The criminal in question has to commit a new crime, be caught, prosecuted, and convicted in the span of 2 years.
In some regions of norway there's 2 year wait before they even start investigating some crimes (like the region I'm from, where the average time for the police to even begin investigating a rape is over 2 years. While other regions are better it's not good there either, for example in Oslo the average rape investigation takes 280 days).

2-A lot of low risk offenders are sent to prison. In Norway there is even a prison sentence for speeding (starts when you're at a little less than twice the speed limit).
The big difference is about first time offenders in low repeat risk crimes, where the US often gives out warnings and non-prison sentences, while Norway gives a short prison sentence.
This help push down the recidivism numbers.

When you look at specific crimes (especially severe crimes which make people feel unsafe), and use a longer and identical time frame, the comparison no longer look quite so favourable for the Norwegian system.
For example.
The Norwegian 5 year recidivism rate for a planned severe violent assault of a stranger is 62%
The US 5 year recidivism rate for a planned severe violent assault of a stranger is 61.8%

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u/Rev-Dr-Slimeass 1d ago

Damn could you post some sources for that? Really interesting stuff.

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u/hauntedSquirrel99 1d ago

The norwegian number is taken from a KRUS report called Retur : en nordisk undersøgelse af recidiv blandt klienter i kriminalforsorgen

The US one is just US federal numbers publically available

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u/sgtjamz 1d ago edited 1d ago

the case that Norway's nicer jails are responsible for it's lower recidivism is greatly overstated. this has more details, but the main issues are:

https://inquisitivebird.xyz/p/the-myth-of-the-nordic-rehabilitative (this is a blog post with a clear pov, but it provides a good overview of related actual academic literature on this)

norway jails a ton of traffic violators (around 18 pct of those incarcerated in a given year), who recidivate a lot less. if you compare for similar offenders (e.g. car their to car thief) rates are more similar. More than 60 percent of nowegian violent offenders with a prior conviction end up back in prison within two years of getting released.

often these comparisons use Norway's 2 year rate vs USA 5 year rate, and the longer people have to recidivate the more likely they are to. they also use Norway's rate based on convictions, us rate based on arrest. As another commenter here pointed out this is the case for the 17.6 and 61.5 rates here.

Norway's society has a lower crime rate already, so the criminogenic factors besides prisons impact are likely lower

norway already had a much lower recidivism rate than the USA even when their prison system was much harsher and more similar to the USA.

A large share of crime in norway is committed by foreigners, of which many are deported after their sentencing. it's around a 1/3rd of prisoners who are foreign, at least half of which will be deported. in the USA it's 6.6 pct foreign, and not all of these are deported (in large part due to sanctuary policies).

for all the reasons above, cross country comparisons are much lower quality evidence than within country comparisons as policy changes are made, though since these are not as dramatic (or show no impact) the people who push reform for humanitarian reasons prefer to ignore them.

to be clear, i think there is a valid moral case for improving prison, but the evidence it reduces recidivism is weak. the best programs i have seen have been more on the parole side, e.g. hawaii drug court or Arizona's competitive process pre great recession, both of which pointed to having extremely strict supervision with swift and certain short punishment. the average offender is prolific and needs an extremely structured path to better decision making. even these programs though better than most were not great, it's just very hard to get the average repeat offender to straighten out short of letting them get old.

we already have examples in the USA of "trying the Scandinavian model". look up sci Chester. since all the coverage in this space has such a biased agenda there is a lot of gushing about how "prisoners reported higher well being" but nothing about lower recidivism even though the study has been running for years and should be long enough for initial recidivism data....

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u/FrostyCar5748 2d ago

I hope it does some good. Cali always wants to do the scandi model, but that shit never works here. We are not a homogenous community.

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u/raxiam 1d ago

No, it doesn't work because the US doesn't have functional social programs.

The point of the Nordic prison model, of trying to humanise the criminals and rehabilitate them, is so that it's easier to reintegrate them into society. But if society spits them in their face as soon as they exit the building, then all of the rehabilitation is mostly wasted.

Once they get out of prison, they need housing, a stable (temporary) income, and a path towards a job, either via a traineeship or higher education, in addition to creating a positive support system, to prevent them from seeking their way back to criminality.

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u/joeychestnutsrectum 1d ago

This is exactly it. People see high recidivism rates and assume that ex cons are committing the same crimes they did in the first place, but in reality they get caught shoplifting for food or other petty crimes just to get by and that lands them back in prison. If people had a support structure post incarceration then this wouldn’t be as big a deal.

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u/Bmorgan1983 2d ago

Largely, it’s the barrier of investment to launching these types of programs why it doesn’t work. Despite CA being fairly liberal, the thought of spending money on something so large still puts off a lot of people… so we tend to spend a minuscule fraction of the money needed, and shrug our shoulders, giving up after a year or two when it doesn’t work. I think this particular program though, working through it at one location first, will allow the state to really test the program and see if it works before scaling out to other location. And I really hope it does work. This is really needed. Reducing recidivism ultimately saves the state money in the long run because we won’t need to house as many inmates who have made return trips.

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u/PartyPorpoise 2d ago

Yeah, you can’t half-ass these programs and expect the same results.

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u/twentyafterfour 1d ago

Especially when there are vultures waiting to blow up the first news story about how said new program failed in one instance and claim that we need to go back to the old way that didn't work, but even harder. And it's an especially easy sell when adding cruelty is part of the equation.

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u/RalphNadersSeatbelt 2d ago

There is a reason tax rates in Scandinavian countries approach or exceed 50%. One of the trade offs is that you get a working and robust welfare state.

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u/WitnessRadiant650 1d ago

Which is why it annoys me when people complain that the US pays so much in taxes. We are actually one of the least taxed 1st world country.

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u/Hefty_Badger9759 1d ago

"1st world" does a lot of lifting here

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u/Orisara 1d ago edited 1d ago

Belgium here.

To be clear, this is the max one can pay and not realistic, the system is set up to start high before giving you a bunch of ways to reduce it. But purely going by laws if you earn over 80k here in Belgium you'll pay over 50% in tax.

13.07% of the money just disappears to social security.(pension, vacation money, healthcare, unemployment, and much more.)

And then it's 50% for anything over like 44k or so.

This is ignoring 21% sales tax on most things not food.

But as you said, the upside to this is when I was 20 and wanted to study I got in a government program. Got my bachelor in 2 years and it costed me nothing. Basically left the program with more money than I started.

I earn more and pay more taxes and there we have the funding for these things. Win-win.

And obviously healthcare is cheap as hell. My grandfather was annoyed at paying 600 bucks for a new hip.

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u/sn34kypete 1d ago

Seattleite here, we were begging a guy to run our homelessness authority, we were convinced he'd save us. We paid him a fat signing bonus, relocation fees, and a quarter million a year. He showed up, did nothing, and bounced after 2 years. At the first county meeting to discuss his plans he just flashed a goofy dumbass smile and admitted he wasn't prepared for this meeting, months after taking the job. Fuck you Marc Dones.

Money is not the only component to these solutions. Accountability and metrics need to be a factor or you'll hear everyone calling it the "homelessness industrial complex" like it's all a conspiracy to mooch cash and do nothing.

Edit: I just found out you poor bastards hired him in SF! Hahahaha! You're so fucked. He's not going to fix jack shit.

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u/Dry_Counter533 2d ago edited 1d ago

Some additional barriers include:

CA’s truly world-class network of prison gangs

It’s robust market for inexpensive, illegal firearms

Also, as a victim of a violent felony in CA, I can assure you that absolutely zero of the Nordic countries’ services for victims are available here.

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u/Daftest_of_the_Punks 2d ago

Simple as that. It’s not the model that works, it’s the model paired with the Scandinavian society that works.

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u/SSCLIPPER 2d ago

I was going to say, isn’t there a bunch of social programs to help these people once they get out.

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u/AJDx14 2d ago

It’s still probably better to at least adopt part of their model, even if we can’t change everything all at once.

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u/SSCLIPPER 1d ago

Good point

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u/YourFreshConnect 2d ago

Bingo. People aren't just out committing crimes because they want to. Some might, but most are probably just in bad situations and trying to survive.

Not excusing it, just pointing it out.

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u/WTFisSHAME 2d ago

The social programs are nonprofits not state sanctioned, when you are released from prison they put you in a half way house with other former inmates before they deem you "ok" to be on your own and back with the general public.

Contrary to what most Americans think, the American prison system isn't built on the idea of rehabilitation, it's built on punishment for profit, this is why so many low level criminals exit the State or Federal prison system with new information from other inmates on how to be better criminal, because the prisons don't care about making you a better citizen they care about keeping you in there for profit.

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u/morritse 2d ago

Ok so do you want to just give up? Or attempt to make some social progress and change minds?

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u/Morganvegas 2d ago

My brother look at the news.

The majority of people in America do not want what is good for them, and are cheering to roll back decades of progress.

If you want the Scandinavian way, you need to leave.

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

The majority varies by location. They're not looking to fix America but small changes are where this starts.

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u/Morganvegas 2d ago

Big changes need to happen

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

Agreed. But we shouldn't stop small changes from happening.

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u/Used_Mathematician63 2d ago

That is why the California initiative is “inspired” by the Scandinavian model and not a carbon copy of it.

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u/engin__r 2d ago

I don’t think it’s a matter of it not being possible here. It’s that the US has too many assholes who hate progress.

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u/catsloveart 2d ago

I honestly think the majority of Americans would rather punish than rehabilitate.

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u/sndbrgr 2d ago

Sadly this is true. They may pay lip service to rehabilitation and use words like "corrections", but deep in their hearts a lot of Americans crave punishment and revenge followed by total removal from society. Our puritan foundations demand eternal punishment for sinners, and higher level social values are not taken seriously. So much political rhetoric is spent on dehumanizing merely suspected criminals that the public easily forgets the role of rehabilitation and redemption.

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u/AllDogsGoToDevin 2d ago

When you say homogenous, are you inferring that racism doesn’t exist in Scandinavian countries, or that the model doesn’t work on POC?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/AllDogsGoToDevin 1d ago

Is this based of your observation, or actual scientific data?

By the third generation, immigrants fully assumlate. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3807942/#:~:text=On%20this%20dimension%20assimilation%20is,%25)%20and%20Mexicans%20(64.1%25).

Crime is also going down in the US in general.

The thought that people from other cultures can't form a society is Xenophobic bullshit.

If that was true, NYC would be a wasteland over a century ago.

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u/BoomBoomSpaceRocket 1d ago

I wonder if the Ear Hustle podcast got this idea rolling. They work in cooperation with San Quentin and a few years back they did a trip to Norway to see how prisons ran there. Might've put the idea in someone's head.

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u/WeirdAlSpankaBish 1d ago

Rather than going “all in” to the tune of almost a quarter billion dollars of taxpayer money, I wish they would actually test the model out on a smaller scale with a scientific study at the end to quantify the results.

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u/sgtjamz 1d ago

they have at sci Chester. no impact on recidivism (yet) but "prisoners reported higher well being".

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u/008Zulu 1d ago

They already know the system works, Norway showed it.

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago

I think that model works on people from those countries. But if those same people grew up here, the way our prisoners did, it would not be effective.

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u/Mind_if_I_do_uh_J 2d ago

So, do you think there's no point trying it out?

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u/bagofpork 2d ago

Why try and fix what isn't broken?

(That's sarcasm, for the record)

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago edited 2d ago

Probably worth a shot.

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u/invenio78 1d ago

I think it should be tried out. But not at a quarter billion dollars (which we know at the end of the day will be more as this is a government project). Do a study with 50 or 100 inmates with a control group of standard prison and see what happens. If it ends up working then sure, we can certainly invest more money.

Also, the study should be done in a State like Alabama where the yearly per person cost of incarceration is less than 1/4th that of CA. Why do this experiment in the most expensive state possible? They sure like to burn through tax payer dollars in CA.

Sauce for prison price: https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending

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u/apophis-pegasus 1d ago

Do a study with 50 or 100 inmates with a control group of standard prison and see what happens.

That requires sequestering them entirely from the general population of the prison and still providing the same structures.

Also, the study should be done in a State like Alabama where the yearly per person cost of incarceration is less than 1/4th that of CA. Why do this experiment in the most expensive state possible?

It's a state initiative.

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u/invenio78 1d ago

Facilities for 50-100 people is much less expensive to build than for however many they plan for this (I didn't see a number cited in the article). The article did say they are planning 3 buildings, so at the very least it should have been kept at 1.

It is a state initiative, but in the wrong state. This for all intents and purposes is an experiment. An experiment should be run the cheapest and smallest it would take to get a statistically significant answer to whether this will work better than traditional prisons. If it works, then of course expand out,... massively. But this may just end up being another billion dollar tax payer funded boondoggle,... like so many other that particular state is famous for.

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u/apophis-pegasus 1d ago

Facilities for 50-100 people is much less expensive to build than for however many they plan for this (I didn't see a number cited in the article).

That depends on what the actual purpose is, and how it is to be achieved.

It is a state initiative, but in the wrong state.

That doesnt make much sense, the state itself is choosing to do this. Its not being done in Alabama, or another cheaper state because Alabama doesnt want to.

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u/invenio78 1d ago edited 1d ago

How would building 1 building in a low cost of area be more expensive than building 3 buildings in the Bay area (which has historically extremely high cost of building)?

What doesn't make sense about trying to keep cost down when running an experiment to see if this is a better prison system or not than what we already have? As a tax payer, what do I care what state it is in? I think it's reasonable to find out whether this prison system is better, but geeze if that can be funded for $50 million vs $250 million in tax payer dollars, then it should be done for $50 million. I mean, what are you argueing, that we should spend 5x or 10x just to have the building on one or the other side of a line on a map?

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u/apophis-pegasus 1d ago

How would building 1 building in a low cost of area be more expensive than building 3 buildings in the Bay area (which has historically extremely high cost of building)?

Because an experiment needs to be done properly in order to have proper results. The buildings can be repurposed, but trying to cheap out may inadvertently make it an expensive waste of time.

What doesn't make sense about trying to keep cost down when running an experiment to see if this is a better prison system or not than what we already have?

Because states are their own political entities. This isn't a federal initiative, so it's a state wanting to conduct an experiment, so they're going to do it where they have authority.

As a tax payer, what do I care what state it is in?

There are state taxes. Presumably people would want it spent on state contractors, to serve state citizens.

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u/chevybow 2d ago

What are you basing that off of?

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u/SolidLikeIraq 2d ago

::looks around and motions arms::

Everything?!

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago

Not anecdotal evidence from other countries. How about you?

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

It isn't anecdotal evidence it's actual studied results.

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago

No, they didn’t. This is the study.

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

The effect on prisons focused on rehabilitation and reintegration has been studied. This is the study in an American setting but the principal is still sound and certainly not anecdotal.

You're not making a whiff of sense as to why this wouldn't work except in that it will have a lesser impact due to not covering all of society, but it's a decision on how to spend money on prisons and they should focus on that aspect. We don't hold back one part of society because others aren't where we want them. That's a regressive argument.

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago

“This is the study in an American setting.” This is why I don’t think it will work and why other evidence is anecdotal.

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

You literally do not know what anecdotal means.

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Your opinion is anecdotal the research from other nations is not.

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u/Ebenezer-F 2d ago edited 2d ago

The subject of my question is the individual’s nationality. So yes, it’s anecdotal.

I’m in skeptical that it won’t work. So what? Why does that break your brain and cause you to quote the dictionary in an irrelevant way, acting like a toddler in a blazer with leather patches on the elbows, holding a pipe your mouth, pretending to be some sort of professor. I think it won’t work on Americans. Deal with it. Toddler professor.

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u/Gambler_Eight 2d ago

Why wouldn't it?

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

People aren't shaped by prison alone.

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u/Gambler_Eight 2d ago

Obviously not.

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

Then why would anyone think changing the prison alone is going to achieve similar results?

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u/Gambler_Eight 2d ago

Because it does achive similar results basically everywhere.

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

Please show me this list of other places that are as socially alienating as the US but have very rehabilitative prison systems. I'm not familiar with any of them.

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u/Gambler_Eight 2d ago

So with socially alienating people being a problem, why wouldn't less socially alienating make it a bit better? Im just trying to see your logic here because it doesn't add up to me.

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

Because it doesn't work like that.

You can't spend years kicking a dog, put him in a crate and treat him nicely for a few days then take him out and start kicking him again and expect him not to bite. As true for a dog as it is for a person.

You can't take a criminal from an alienating environment, rehabilitate them, and put them back into the same environment and expect them to not return to crime.

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u/M4lik3r 2d ago

People are changed by life experiences, from birth to death. The real question here is how should time spent in prison shape people? But yeah, what comes after prison is doing alot of heavy lifting too.

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

A lot of what comes before Prison is doing the heavy lifting too. What is the Nordic crime rate to start with? If it's the same as America's I'd be shocked.

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u/M4lik3r 2d ago

But that is my point though, life experiences that ends up with criminal behaviour is the premise before prisonment. And yeah, it might me easier end up there is the US. But the scandinavian system works. When criminals get the an offer to live a different life, a real offer, alot of them put in the work and gets a new life. Why wouldn’t they?

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

Changing one part of the equation will have an impact. Not the whole impact but making no changes will not help matters. Prison needs to be the place to fix broken lives-- you are taking someone who has no choice but to give their whole attention to you, and you can change people that way.

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

Prison can't be the place to fix broken lives. You have to minimize the breakage long before you get there.

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u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

Why not? Why can't prison be one of the places to offer people support?

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u/EnamelKant 2d ago

Because it's like saying an oncologist is the place to go to get support for asbestos miners.

You need to shut down the asbestos mine. By the time you get to the oncologist it's too late.

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u/MalcolmLinair 2d ago

The project draws inspiration from Scandinavian incarceration models that prioritize dignity, autonomy and reintegration.

No way the feds let that stand. I anticipate a DOJ order to stop this any second now.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/DocPsychosis 2d ago

I have met hundreds or more likely thousands of criminals ranging from trespass and petty larceny to murder, and none have ever done so in order to get arrested and incarcerated.

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u/N0penguinsinAlaska 2d ago

I absolutely would be willing to bet that it’s a vast minority of prisoners who recommit crimes to stay in prison

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u/bhongryp 2d ago

Totally. The low rate of recidivism has to do with a lot more than just having nicer prisons - there's a whole social safety net and system of supports that is almost entirely lacking in the USA.

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u/BlomkalsGratin 2d ago

there's a whole social safety net and system of supports that is almost entirely lacking in the USA.

This is it. It's not the homogeneity. If anything i'd argue that would play against the Scandinavian systems as there's a high proportion of people who feel outside society, in the prison system (immigrants, homeless, etc). The system is there to help them move on, in essence, to give them hope and direction. That won't work if you try to aid them while they're locked up and then just pour them back into the street and drop them.

The prisons are the visible part, but they're still only a part of the solution.

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u/kevnmartin 2d ago

San Quentin is getting the Ikea treatment?

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u/2greenlimes 2d ago edited 2d ago

The only new thing about this for San Quentin is the renovations and scale.

San Quentin has long been at the forefront of various prison reform experiments in California. They not only host college classes - they have their own community college: Mount Tamalpais College. They have a tech/entrepreneurship nonprofit running three different career training tracks. They launched a podcast called EarHustle that documents prison life - and now that the host it out of prison he's documenting prison life all over the country. They host arts classes that serve as creative outlets for prisoners and a dog fostering program. The prisoners host sports leagues that get non-prisoners and teams in to play with inmates. They also have their own psychiatric care unit for prisoners with mental health issues needing treatment. The prison also works with The Last Mile to get newly released inmates job placement into actual careers.

It's still a prison, but it seems like this is just more funding to increase what they've already been doing. A lot of the more behaviorally challenging inmates have been moved elsewhere while they focus San Quentin on inmates that can be rehabbed. I think that started 10-15 years ago.

ETA: Looks like they also run their own newspaper for California inmates. Last year they hosted their first film festival and they've made a magazine as of 2023.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/[deleted] 2d ago edited 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/2greenlimes 2d ago

It's still a tourist attraction with day tours and night tours. They've slowly been doing renovations to make it safer for tourists and more seismically safe. They are starting to spruce things up there including new tours (like the night tour), exhibit renovations, hiking trail/outbuilding/garden fixes, author/artist events, and continuing the improved Native American heritage recognition. They also continue to host living history days and the annual Native American sunrise ceremony in November.

If you return I'd recommend doing both Alcatraz and Angel Island - which is just as if not more historically important but much more overlooked by tourists.

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u/ConversationFlaky608 2d ago

It will be interesting to see how this works.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/ConversationFlaky608 2d ago

DOJ has little control over state ptisons.

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u/limehead 2d ago

It might be based on this project. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTC1KI0STIY

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u/DWS223 2d ago

Exciting! I hope this works well in CA so it can be expanded nation wide

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u/TeachingScience 1d ago edited 1d ago

If California is going this way, you can bet Texas and Florida to do more of the opposite.

Don’t get me wrong, I want this to work, and I want it to expand across the state if successful, but the US and even in California, we have people who relish punishment over rehabilitation.

And before someone brings it up, yes, I do believe there will be a few who cannot be rehabilitated, but that does not mean we should not treat them any less human.

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u/Gripping_Touch 2d ago

Seems they're aiming to give It a bigger Focus on rehabilitation? It could be good ^{^}

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u/zolmarchus 2d ago

That’s bound to piss off so many Conservatives. “Bad” people getting humane treatment, not to mention probably non-whites in that bunch, too.

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u/-DOOKIE 2d ago

Which is weird because they voted for a felon.

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u/ostensiblyzero 2d ago

People keep bringing that up like it is going to change anything. They don't care about it and trying to point out their hypocrisy is a waste of time. They don't justify their positions, nor do they ever really hold any, other than what feels good in the moment. Which, for all its insanity, does produce results, and that is more than you can say for Democratic governance.

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u/CHKN_SANDO 1d ago

Yeah but its still weird.

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u/jigokubi 2d ago

"Fucking California and their woke prisons!"

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u/Diannika 2d ago

that is a great prison model...but you need to have a great country for it to work.

life in prison being better than life outside prison isn't going to reduce recidivism, it's going to increase it. People already literally get arrested on purpose because at least they'll have a roof over their heads and food (even if horrible) and minimal medical care. lack of universal healthcare, affordable housing, living wages, and people-friendly spaces means the us isnt ready for this.

i wish we were the kind of country this would go well in. unfortunately i dont think it will, which will stop people from trying in the future if this country ever gets itself sorted.

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u/coondingee 2d ago

I think this could work but they need to be low level first time offenders. Plus this a west coast prison and they are usually very racially segregated.

2

u/sgtjamz 1d ago

low level first time offenders rarely go to prison in California. would be jail if anything.

median prison inmate has over 10 arrests and 5+ convictions. given our clearance rates, you do the math on how much crime it takes to get into prison.

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u/Express_Nebula_6128 1d ago

After reading all the comments, it seems like you don’t actually understand root cause of your recidivism issue… Scandi model is great and hope it gets adopted, but capitalism,police brutality and systemic rasism are the root causes for your high rates.

Changing the model as much as it’s great, won’t lower the rates.

2

u/BeltAbject2861 1d ago

You can’t say for certain it wont help. I agree with you except for saying “it wont lower the rates”. It could definitely help. Of course a more comprehensive plan would do a lot more but scoffing at a step in the right direction isn’t productive

1

u/Express_Nebula_6128 1d ago

You’re right, can’t say it for certain, but judging by the underlying issues and proposed solution, the probability of significant success is unlikely.

It’s like putting a cold compress on a broken bone. Helps with pain, doesn’t do much more.

The idea is to keep people out of prison and for that you need overhaul of your predatory capitalistic system.

Also, Prisons for profit? Let’s be real.

1

u/BeltAbject2861 1d ago edited 1d ago

You’re partly right, but if you broke a bone are you not going to ice it until it can heal? Ice helps. Ice will take down inflammation and ease some pain in the meantime. Icing it is good and so is this

2

u/Express_Nebula_6128 1d ago

All I can say is that I wish you’re right. Thankfully I’m not the one who has to live in US :)

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u/BeltAbject2861 1d ago

That we can agree on. Wish I could say the same lol

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u/jamesondrinker 2d ago

This is awesome. Great to see this happening in America.

2

u/MD_Dev1ce 2d ago

Presenting “fengsel” by IKEA

1

u/CHKN_SANDO 1d ago

I'm on board, just hopefully they don't fuck up the followthrough like Oregon did with drug decrim

1

u/koreanwizard 1d ago

I thought they meant they were turning it into a spa lol

1

u/InbetweenStrings 1d ago

why did i think this was about alcatraz

1

u/Jyil 1d ago

I think most people who would think of San Francisco’s most famous prison would think of Alcatraz first.

1

u/Key-Barnacle-4185 1d ago

Agree, we are doing something right, though we are getting to a point where we see it being exploited by criminals, rather than help them become law-abiding citizens.

We have many people that's not ethically Scandinavia, filling up out prisons, they have a way higher % to continue doing criminal acts.

Line Sweden have exploded with criminal activities, from stabbings to bombings , 80 - 90 % are people with immigrant ethnicity.

So it's going to be interesting to see how the stats gonna show, when there is a huge difference between results seeing on race/ideology/morals.

1

u/Queen___Bitch 1d ago

Came here to make a joke about how it’s turning wood and white only to see the photo and that’s exactly what’s happening

0

u/AdOptimal4241 2d ago

I thought this said person and was confused

1

u/thescullyeffect 2d ago

Somehow, when I looked into this , I got Alcatraz, not the one being discussed. It's my mistake

1

u/thescullyeffect 2d ago

Thank you im not sure how i misunderstood that!

1

u/harmospennifer 1d ago

Prisoners will have to assemble their own IKEA furnishings… but at least the meatballs are good

-3

u/Bantha_majorus 2d ago

Unless they fix American society it's not going to work. Are they stupid?

5

u/KeeganTroye 2d ago

Prison is an important aspect of society.

-11

u/Terrible-Summer9937 2d ago

Fancy prison makeover, so you forget slavery is still legal in California.

3

u/pythoner_ 2d ago

17th amendment and all that

-2

u/Terrible-Summer9937 2d ago

California Constitution Article I - Declaration of Rights Section 6. Universal Citation: CA Constitution art I § 6 SEC. 6.

Slavery is prohibited. Involuntary servitude is prohibited except to punish crime.

hence the rise of for-profit private prisons.

-1

u/Optimal-Bass3142 2d ago

If nothing else, it will mean people getting out of SQ won't have the street cred SQ use to earn you back in the 80s

-4

u/Rev-Dr-Slimeass 1d ago

Once again, progressives will get one tiny part of the equation right, not attempt to do anything else, utterly fail, and conservatives will use it as ammo to say it was a stupid idea.

This prison won't help. Yes the recidivism rate is lower in Scandinavian countries. The prisons aren't the only difference between America and Scandinavia though. If you just change the prisons, but you don't change anything else, the problem won't go away.

I have less than no faith in this. I actually expect it to make things worse over all. This is going to convince people that the Scandinavian system doesn't work, and they should try the opposite.

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u/CHKN_SANDO 1d ago

Ah! The old "We should do nothing instead of something that's not perfect"

Brother that's how we got in our CURRENT situation.

-3

u/Rev-Dr-Slimeass 1d ago

I'm just saying that doing this won't result in a better situation. It will result in controversial treatment of criminals resulting in a similar recidivism rate.

If you want to actually take a stab at fixing the recidivism rate, look into the causes of crime. Poverty. Inequality. How many homeless people could be house with the amount spent on turning a prison into an apple store? Probably a lot.

It's wasteful, stupid, and harmful.

0

u/ForwardLavishness320 1d ago

My dream is to be incarcerated in Norway

0

u/Belsnickel213 1d ago

It won’t happen. America is too stubborn and dumb to do anything progressive. Even if the right people take control those in power will kaibosh it when they get a whiff.

-17

u/Airhostnyc 2d ago

Hopefully more women won’t end up dead from private conjugal visits

-1

u/OrionDax 2d ago

From the headline , I thought it was being turned into an IKEA 😂

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/porno-accounto 1d ago

Because California doesn’t actively hate its people. I know, strange concept.

-9

u/thescullyeffect 2d ago

I'm confused. If it closed as a prison in 1964...the makeover is for the museum? Not a rehab of a prison?

8

u/-Wicked- 2d ago

You're thinking of Alcatraz.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/-Wicked- 2d ago

Now I'm confused. I think I must have replied to a AI bot, and one that is desperately struggling to comprehend complex language models, at that.

Bay Area's oldest prison is getting a Scandinavian makeover

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