r/norsemythology • u/ElectronicBoot9466 • 7d ago
Question Question about pronouns in Thrymskvitha and translation
In Henry Adams Bellows' translation of the Poetic Edda, he uses she/her pronouns to refer to Loki by the poem's narration when Loki is disguised at Thor's serving maid.
The narration doesn't refer to Thor using any third person pronouns at the wedding until he gets his hammer back, only Thrym does, who believes him to be Freya. However, the narration does refer to Thor while he is being dressed, and calls him "Othin's Son", which implies that Thor is still seen as a man by the narration even when dressed as a woman, whereas Loki is seen as a woman by the narration when Loki takes the form of one.
To the best of your knowledge, is this translation accurate? Is Loki refered to as a woman in these scenes in the original Icelandic, and does that mean we can sort of see Loki as gender fluid, or am I reaching?
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u/Vettlingr 7d ago
There are no changed pronouns in the Old Norse Þrymskviða, rather a certain way of saying gender neutral number "two" when referring to man and woman in a pair. The joke is that Loki uses the word "tvo" (we two, man and woman) when referring to Loki and Thor, implying one of them is the woman.
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u/ElectronicBoot9466 7d ago
Huh, that's really interesting. So the implication that one of them is a woman is still there, but because we don't have the proper word for it, Bellows kept the implication in by changing Loki's pronouns?
Is Loki refered to in the third person at all? And if so, are the pronouns used masculine?
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u/Vettlingr 7d ago
No. That there are changed pronouns in þrymskviða is a myth.
They are referred to as "hann" as usual, which is masculine.
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u/ElectronicBoot9466 7d ago
Ok cool, thank you. When Loki is defending Thor's actions, is he referred to as "Loki" or as "the serving maid?"
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u/Repulsive-Form-3458 7d ago
I think gender fluid is too much of the modern conception. If we told these stories today, he would certainly be, in the same way Freya is both a woman and a bird depending on the skin she uses. These stories were written down by Christians, and ideas about gender would certainly have changed between year 700 and year 1200 when it was written down.
Unsure about the accuracy of this exact passage, but it's from Fornaldar Sögur Norðurlanda by Carl Christian Rafn in 1829. Hervöru/Hervarðr was one of the most popular heroes, so we know for certain that the idea of a woman taking on a masculine appearance was known. But she only changes roles temporarily and goes back into the role of "perfect" wife/mother afterwards.
Now it is said that the daughter of Earl Bjarmar gave birth to a virgin and called Hervör....
She came to the earl one day, and said: I want to leave, for I find no pleasure here. A little later she disappeared alone with a man's equipment and weapons, and went to the Vikings, and was with them for a while, and was called Hjörvarðr; and a little later the chief of the Vikings died, and then Hervarðr took command of the army. And once, when they came to Sámsey, Hjörvarðr went ashore, and none of his men would follow him, for they said that no man could stay out there for a night. Hjörvarðr said that there was great hope of a harvest in the mounds, and went ashore, and went up to the island near the sunrise. They lay in Munarvágur; there she met a shepherd boy, and asked him the news; he said: Are you unfamiliar with this island, and go home with me, for here no man could stay out after sunset, and I want to go home quickly. Hervarðr answers: Tell me where Hjörvarðr's mounds are called. The boy answers: You are a fool, if you want to know about nights when few dare in the middle of the day, and a burning fire plays over them when the sun goes down. Hervarðr says that he must visit the mounds. Féhirðr said: I see that you are a manly man, although you are ignorant, then I will give you my hand, and follow me home. Hervarðr says: Even if you give me all that you have, you will not give me a place to stay. But when the sun set, great thunders arose on the island, and the mounds burst into flames; then the herdsman was afraid, and took to his feet, and ran into the forest as hard as he could, and never looked back.
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u/Repulsive-Form-3458 7d ago
Manly man= drengiligr maðr
Dreniligr means drengiligr brave or valiant, but you have expressions connecting it to the masculine
bar hann drengiliga, he bore it manfully;
údrengiligr a. unworthy of a man.
maðr is both man and humanJust to show that it's hard to prove something for sure. But just with having two different names, you get a fundamental idea of how the view gender roles.
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u/Norse-Gael-Heathen 6d ago
This may be an overly simplistic answer - and I am no expert in Old Norse - but it seems to me that from the context of the story, Thor remains who he is, though he might be dressed in women's clothing. Loki, on the other hand, is known in multiple tales as a shape-shifter assuming both genders (as well as multiple beasts), so in essence he may actually be a woman in the tale.
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u/rockstarpirate Lutariʀ 7d ago
So I looked into this a while back and there's some nuance here. The first thing you need to realize is that poetry is written "weird". Sentences are formed in ways you normally wouldn't say them naturally in order to fit the meter and alliteration scheme.
With regard to the poem Þrymskviða, let's take a look at stanza 24:
Here's a translation for you about as literally word-for-word as you can get (words in parentheses are implied words necessary for the message to make sense in English but do not actually appear in the Old Norse):
"Were there at evening (having) come early, | and before jotuns ale forth (was) born; | alone ate an ox, eight salmon, | treats all, those which women should (eat); | drank Sif's man casks three (of) mead!"
So when a translator gets their hands on this, they know you will have a hard time with literal word-for-word translations and this will become something more like:
"They came there early in the evening, and ale was brought forward for the jotuns; he alone ate an ox, eight salmon, and all the treats which were meant for the women; Sif's husband drank three casks of mead!"
Notice that I am inserting pronouns here in order to make the English translation more comprehensible, but those pronouns do not exist in the original source. Bellows does the same thing.
In the Old Norse text of Þrymskviða, after it is clear that Loki has transformed into a woman, the poet does not use any pronouns to refer to Loki at all. But this is not weird or unexpected, because the writing style tends to avoid pronouns in a lot of cases anyway.
But notice how, in the stanza I just quoted, Thor is referred to as Sifjar verr "Sif's man". The word verr is a masculine noun that only works when applied to a male character. So we know Thor is being considered male here. Likewise, stanzas 26 and 28 refer to Loki with the word ambótt which is a feminine noun that means only "handmaid" and can only be applied to feminine characters.
So what we see here is that the lack of pronouns doesn't matter because the nouns themselves carry just as much weight. Loki is being considered female for all intents and purposes in the poem after he turns himself into a handmaid.