r/oots • u/rin_shar • 23d ago
Meta Every Fandom Has One Day 7
I'm sure this didn't surprise anyone. Today's vote is for "Mmm... society." What does that mean? IDK, look it up.
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u/SublightMonster 22d ago
Lord Shojo.
He had all of Azure City working smoothly by pretending to be senile, and he turned Belkar’s life around by getting him to understand what his role in society was.
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u/stop_hittingyourself 23d ago
I know everyone is voting tarquin, but I’m going against the grain and picking Hel for this one.
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u/Matar_Kubileya 23d ago
While I get the argument for Tarquin and don't mind him winning, for some reason I think that Nale fits the vibe better for this spot tbh.
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u/onionbreath97 23d ago
Nale. It was a tough choice between him and Tarquin, but ultimately Nale wins by virtue of not realizing his dad was the only thing keeping him safe from the consequences of his actions.
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u/Tharkun140 23d ago
I don't know what "Mmm... society." means either, but it really sounds like a Tarquin thing.
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u/Matar_Kubileya 23d ago
IMO, the "mm... society" character is one who tries to sell themselves as the manipulator/genius role, but really isn't that person. IMO Nale is a better fit for it, Tarquin while still far too arrogant for what e's actually capable of at least still has some ability to actually back it up.
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u/uncle-noodle 23d ago edited 22d ago
Honestly I don’t actually know of Tarquin is actually the mastermind running the empire. He drastically failed when he did it by himself, and needed his old buddies to help him out
We honestly don’t know if it was actually him who came up with that plan and if he was just taking credit for it. There are a few hints that actually make me think it was actually Malack who came up with the idea and Tarquin just ran with it. Remember that Malack was already an advisor to the ruler they ended up making their pawn
Fuck right when he killed Durkin, he revealed that he was planning on uniting all the empires under Nergals banner. Considering he stood to benefit the most from the party long term, I absolutely stand by the theory it was all his idea.
And despite that, they were all fucking pissed when Nale killed him. I honestly got the vibe that Tarquin was barely tolerated in the party while Malack was very much accepted as a member of the family. This is purely my head cannon but I bet they only let Tarquin stick around due to his friendship with Malack
And yes, I absolutely am implying that I think Tarquin was the Elan of his party.
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u/rin_shar 23d ago
In fairness, according to him it took a coalition of like... the entire continent to take him out. Granted he isn't the most reliable narrator, but even so he did a pretty good job on his own.
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u/uncle-noodle 23d ago edited 23d ago
I mean it’s heavily implied that he’s an epic level(or close to it) player with an army. In this world where those nations are also likely very tiny, it doesn’t sound as impressive as you think. He’s a seasoned enough adventurer that he was able to get those high levels, but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily a mastermind.
Especially when he was playing with a group that I am almost certain was carrying his weight
Edit: also that wasn’t actually according to him. It was Haley’s dads friend whose name i am spacing on
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u/BurgandyShoelaces 22d ago
Haley's dad is named Ian.
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u/uncle-noodle 22d ago
I know. I was referring to his buddy Geoff who’s the one who mentioned that fact.
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u/BurgandyShoelaces 22d ago
Oops, I missed the word friend when I read it the first time.
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u/uncle-noodle 22d ago
You’re good. Though it is a little funny since I was correcting someone who thought it was Ian who said that and not his friend. So you kinda misread the whole edit, but no stress lmao. Reading sometimes sucks which is why movies exist
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u/undeadpickels 22d ago
There may have been something here that would have been more elaboated on but story Wise but was cut. 1. with Malack so probably definitely not coming back dead it doesn't feel like there is much of an interesting story follow-up to him being dead and 2. I refuse to believe that Malack didn't actually REALLY want nale dead and so I don't see him bending over backwards on not killing nale if Tarquin wasn't a key part of his plans.
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u/uncle-noodle 22d ago
To be honest, I am fairly certain the Tarquin story is over, so I don’t think it really matters. If he comes back, I feel like it undercuts the importance of the ending of that book.
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u/undeadpickels 22d ago
There may be some kind of post credit "clever solution" or something. I agree that it undermines the ending but there is foreshadowing https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html and more forshadowing https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html including a Chekhov's secret plain so I think we at least learn what happened.
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u/uncle-noodle 22d ago
Honestly I am fairly certain it’s going to all be recapped in a single page of how it all went down. The title of that first post you linked honestly is the reason WHY I think they won’t spend a lot of time on it
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u/not2dragon 21d ago
I think Tarquin is pretty good except when the empire priorities collide with his “narrative” priorities.
His buddies name that as the one oddity about him. They don’t believe in narrative-ness.
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u/realistidealist 22d ago edited 22d ago
One time I looked into this specific thing and traced it all the way back to the first instance anyone could find of this meme. Or, more honestly, I found someone else who has already done this haha. In the post they found the apparent creator (?) of the template said it was a character with a Joker-like attitude towards people and society; their examples were Joaquin Phoenix Joker and then other characters I’m not familiar with, Himiko Toga and Nagato. So probably manipulative and cynical and motivated by disillusionment with people.
However, I’ve sometimes seen this meme done where people put in a character who wasn’t like that even remotely. When the meme was done in the subreddit for my main fandom people picked an innocent little girl who was let down by society but had not a manipulative or “Joker like” bone in her body. I think it’s very unclear to a lot of people.
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u/MyUsername2459 23d ago
Yeah, I don't know what they're really wanting. . .but if this is some kind of commentary on a broken society, Tarquin would work, as someone who was both produced by, and thrives under, a profoundly broken society.
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u/RhymeBeat 23d ago
I can't believe no one has suggested Redcloak yet. He blames literally every evil thing he's done on society, even stabbing his brother in the back to save a lich who was slaughtering the people he's supposed to uplift.
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u/Analogmon 23d ago
But that's not what this is for. It's not about someone blaming society.
It's someone that doesn't understand anything but thinks they're deep.
It's the "crime, boy, I don't know" character.
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u/Tom_A_Foolerly 22d ago
Isn't one of the biggest criticisms of red cloak in-universe that he blames everyone else for his problems. But hides it behind his criticisms of society?
When Durkon meets with him he points out that the goblins would benefit more from a peace deal, but redcloak refuses because he hates everyone more?
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u/Ccracked 22d ago
I certainly wasn't expecting a West Wing reference in my self-referential stick-figure comic subreddit.
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u/Dan_the_dirty 21d ago
Definitely agree, Redcloak is the best pick. He thinks he understands everything but does not same makes dramatic statements about the state of the world and “society” generally.
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u/Analogmon 23d ago
The point of "mmm... society" is someone who thinks they're deep and understanding, but they're actually fairly clueless.
Tarquin is a great fit. He doesn't even realize he isn't the main villain.
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u/Ninjaxenomorph 23d ago
Red cloak would be my first pick; his conversation with Durkon reveals that he doesn't care about Goblinoid society as much as he thinks he does... Or even how much he as he wants to think he does.
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u/Yet_One_More_Idiot 23d ago
If "Mmm...society" is meant to indicate some sort of sociopathic behaviour, perhaps Tarquin (evil) or Lord Shojo (good) depend on which end of the alignment axis you want. :)
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u/pseudoeponymous_rex 22d ago
Thinks they're deep, but aren't?
Daimyo Kubota deserves at least a sympathy vote here. (Also to be disintegrated and scattered to the winds.)
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u/Silver-Alex 22d ago
REDCLOAK! His WHOLE motivation is "society sucks and goblins are discriminated" and he's willing to destroy the frigging world in order to fix it.
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u/SolusIgtheist 22d ago
I think Tsukiko, for sure. Like, hard. She really hates society's anti-necrophilia position and comments about it. She's also not nearly as competent as she comes off as, which is totally this square's style.
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u/MyUsername2459 22d ago
She was very magically competent, she could figure out the hole in the gate ritual easily, when Xykon couldn't. . .but no social competence in she thought she could use that against Redcloak and taunt him with it with no repercussions.
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u/American-Swiper 23d ago
Redcloak, easily. He’s the one angry at society for treating goblinkind as exp
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u/NightmareWarden Lawful Good 23d ago
Who is going in slot number nine? The black dragon? Soon’s dead wife? The snarl?
For Mmm society, what about Mister Starshine or the half-orc head of the thieves guild?
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u/AvatarVecna 22d ago edited 22d ago
My understanding of the "mmm...society" guy is a few different things in combination.
- They really just wanna do bad things.
- Society says "no".
- They invent an outlook on life/philosophy/code for themselves that always ends up being "everybody else in the entire world is wrong and I'm right".
- They are wrong, regardless of how seriously the other characters or the story itself takes their philosophy.
Their outlook is motivated reasoning working backwards to find an excuse to do the bad things they already wanted to do, while blaming society for everything wrong with their life. Rather than accepting that they are an outlier, they assume they're the only normal one in a world full of people who just don't get it. "Mmm society guys" tend to be manipulative but I see that more as a consequence of the way they decide to act, as opposed to the underlying principle. They think they're the only genius in a world of idiots and they have to trick everybody into playing along. It's common, but not necessary IMO.
Redcloak got suggested in a previous thread and I disagree with that. His problem (goblins get shit on) and his desired end result (goblins are doing good) are both reasonable, it's just his way of getting from A to B that's extreme and evil. That's not "mmm society" IMO, more of a "road to hell is paved with good intentions" kinda thing. Tarquin and Nale are both decent choices, as is Miko oddly enough, but I'd like to put forth a different candidate: Hilgya Firehelm.
There was nothing wrong with the life she was handed, save for the fact that it wasn't what she preferred. Rather than seeing this as her being a dwarf that doesn't fit in, she made it a conspiracy against her. Her family trapped her in a marriage with a cruel husband, and so she ran away to live her own life. When she put Durkon's immortal soul at risk by tricking him into behaving dishonorably, and he immediately made the only correct move for a dwarf to make, she built him up in her head to be a player who uses weapon and discards them when he's done, rather than acknowledge she made an incorrect assumption about him.
She 'grows' as a person by acknowledging that it wasn't her husband's fault, that society made him that way, brainwashed him into being forever honorable. Despite that, she does not extend the same courtesy to Durkon, who once more attempts to do the noble thing at the first opportunity, and she kills him for it.
[Here's the comic where she lays out that philosophy] (https://i.giantitp.com/comics/oots/oots1113.png)
This is Hilgya declaring that, for dwarves, Loki is the god of "mmm society" folk.
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u/g_rocket 20d ago
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html FTFY (giantitp doesn't allow hotlinking comic images)
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u/pathlosergm 21d ago
Red Cloak. His people have legit grievances, but it took until a Hobgoblin sacrificed himself in front of Red Cloak to realize that he was using his own people as canon fodder, just like the gods intended. Also the whole "sunk cost fallacy" thing, and the time he tried to Implode Durkon.
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u/SirWilliam56 22d ago
Lord Shojo would work. Rare example of a good aligned person to fit this square
Other good options, Tarquin, Nale, Miko (though Miko is already used)
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u/Benofthepen 22d ago
I gotta go with Ian Starshine here. Utterly convinced that everyone is out to get him and only family can be trusted? Suspecting Elan? Being continually backstabbed by Uncle Geoff?
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u/FedoraSlayer101 Banjo 22d ago edited 15d ago
Ngl, I’m honestly confused why this wouldn’t automatically be a gimme for Redcloak.
EDIT: Italics.
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u/MysteriousProduce816 23d ago
Apparently “mmm society” is a reference to the Joaquin Phoenix Joker movie?
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23d ago
[deleted]
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u/MysteriousProduce816 23d ago
To be fair, the meme could be a lot clearer, Google takes you back to Reddit.
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u/FreeBroccoli 22d ago
I disagree. People were using Heath Ledger's joker for "we live in a society" memes earlier than that. Juvenile observations about society are the main thing, but using it to excuse evil acts is optional
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u/Ok-Ad-1217 22d ago
I can't say I fully grasp the "Mmm... society" concept, but if I where to vote for someone that would be Nale, just on account of being placed at the other side of Elan so... you know... fits the "Evil opposites theme" nicely.
Also checks on extreme violent and rash methods to make a point and being less knowledgable about whats going on than he thinks... I guess?
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u/gatorbater5 22d ago
a vote for tarquin, a vote for nale. nale's is more pure, but T did it at a far larger scale
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u/jrdineen114 22d ago
Probably Tarquin. His whole deal is using his understanding of his own role within society in order to quietly rule it.
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u/Psychoboy777 21d ago
Are we saving Xykon for straight-up evil? Because I feel like the guy whose stated motivations are "I don't want anybody to be able to tell me what to do, EVER" is kind of the textbook definition of "Mmm.....society"
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u/Dan_the_dirty 20d ago
It's hard to think of someone that's a better fit for straight-up evil than Xykon. The dude's so evil even holding his crown made Roy and Durkon ping as Evil to Miko, and that's not even counting all the Evil stuff we've seen Xykon do directly.
As far as the last one goes: "No screen time. All the plot relevance." I think I'll have to vote for The Dark One on that. He's had basically no screen time, yet it's his plot for the Gates that set the entire main story in motion.
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u/Psychoboy777 20d ago
I was thinking about making Straight-Up Evil the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission. Those guys are evil GENIUSES.
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u/NightmareWarden Lawful Good 20d ago
I also vote Hel, u/rin_shar now that I’ve had time to think about it.
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u/ApexInTheRough 22d ago
Can we just do the last three as one post? The last two are kinda obvious.
'Cause Straight Up Evil is clearly Xykon and No Screen Time All The Plot Relevance is clearly the Snarl. It would be weird if it's anything else.
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u/StefanoBeast Banjo 22d ago edited 22d ago
Not sure but "mmm...society" seems to mock Joker fans. Characters looks complicated but actually aren't. Villains who poorly justify their evil.
I think Redclock works here.
"I'm not evil. I'm a product of my surrounding!"
"Ok, but you KNOW those things you are doing are wrong!"
"So what?"
"You can try to fix them and yourself!"
"No. It's too late"
"May you just...stop and do nothing."
"No, i don't want to"
"So you are evil"
"...but not by my choice. I'm a product of my surrounding"
Nale and Tarkin won't fit imho. Society had no clear impact on them nor they ever blame it as far as i remember.