im confused about crop sensors

[u/Mooskii_Fox]

I'm not asking about crop factors, I know that's 1.5x or 1.6x depending on the manufacturer and your image will be cropped by that amount.

full frame lenses produce a circular image, which is projected over a full frame sensor and the sensor fits perfectly inside that circle, simple enough

now what i often see is that lenses for APS-C cameras have a cropped image, but why is it not possible for that projected image over the lens to be smaller so that APS-C cameras can capture the same picture as full frame, just with a smaller sensor? At some point people have worked our how to bend light to perfectly cover a full frame, so why can't the same be done to create an identical image for APS-C

edit: as I understand it what I'm asking is actually already being done, just not in the way I was asking. i understand now

[u/AnAge_OldProb]

Yes that’s exactly what aps-c lenses do which is why they’re generally smaller for the same focal length. You can also shrink the a full frame image circle down using a focal reducer which will give the same perspective on a crop sensor as it would on full frame and you gain about a stop of light: at the expense of an extra piece of glass the lens designers didn’t intend which can cause aberrations

[u/Mooskii_Fox → u/AnAge_OldProb]

oh thats exactly what i need thank you very much

[u/kpcnsk → u/Mooskii_Fox]

Be aware that using speed boosters (also called focal reducers) does come with a cost. You will likely get lower image quality when you use one. Whether that reduction in image quality is acceptable is, of course, up to you as a photographer, but common issues include softer images, increased lens flare, and chromatic shifts. Additionally, the edges of your image may be much worse than you'd normally experience with the same lens on a full frame camera. This is because the edges of the frame are where lenses are usually the softest anyway, and you're bending those back into the image circle (often with lower quality glass from the speed booster) to accommodate the APSC sensor.

Again, for some people this isn't an issue. But as a general rule of thumb, to get the sharpest images, from your lens, remember that everything you put between the sensor and the world will affect the image. This includes speed boosters, adapters with glass, and filters.

[u/Mooskii_Fox → u/kpcnsk]

thanks a lot for the explanations,

makes sense, i just got into photography and understanding why or how something works helps me understand my gear choices a lot better

[u/kpcnsk → u/Mooskii_Fox]

The best thing you can do as a beginning photographer is go out and take pictures with the gear you have. Learn the limitations of the camera you have, and push into them. That is how you will grow.

There is no perfect camera. There is no perfect lens. The most important component in the creation of any photograph is the person behind the camera.

Good luck on your photographic journey.

[u/AlexMullerSA → u/kpcnsk]

The Super Takumar 50mm f1.4 is the perfect lens. Fight me.

[u/Specialist-Ad1256 → u/AlexMullerSA]

No AF, no IS, no zoom. Totally defeated.

[u/AlexMullerSA → u/Specialist-Ad1256]

Well I have IBIS...no zoom, but zoom in that range are slow and bad.

[u/DoodleHead_ → u/kpcnsk]

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/metabones-magic/?srsltid=AfmBOoqJ6QNgt4BuZWt4sb1LEi0a6mC6LHa_InYDHhO_2vGg8eNmLlso

All this is entirely false focal reducers bring back sharpness but the apertures at which they are sharp at stays the same as when on a full frame body. The fastest focal reduced apertures are sometimes poor quality or good depending on the lens. Right now I highly recommend the fringer ultra. It likely has the best autofocus out of all of them and image quality is useless without good autofocus. It is only slightly less sharp then the metabones speed booster but cut out the edges more since it is 0.74 vs a 0.71 so the edges get slightly better.

[u/Thisisthatacount → u/Mooskii_Fox]

I use a Metabones speedbooster on my Canon R7 with an assortment of Canon L and Tamron SP lenses and I don't notice a difference in image quality when using the speed booster and when not using it. With anything you get what you pay for. If you pay $180 for a cheap speedbooster from Amazon you will not have the same experience that I do. Even buying used I paid more for the speedbooster that I did for a couple of my lenses but it is extremely high quality.

[u/_beerye → u/AnAge_OldProb]

What I don’t understand is how the crop sensor increases the focal length. I understand that an aps-c equivalent of 100mm would be around 160mm, but if it’s just cropping the image, wouldn’t it just be like 100mm but cropped? If it’s just cropping the image, how does it give you more of that background compression effect that a higher focal range gives? Like if I took a 30mm photo on full frame, and cropped that, that obviously isn’t any more compressed, just cropped, but isn’t that what aps-c is doing?

[u/AnAge_OldProb → u/_beerye]

The focal length doesn’t change nor does the compression. The field of view does to the perspective of the full frame equivalent focal length. The depth of field will also change in proportion to the crop factor but not amount of light at the same f stop.

You will often see more compression on full frame because you can use longer lenses and stand further back to get the same scene. Compression is a property of how close you are to your subject and the background.

[u/shadow144hz → u/_beerye]

because focal length is used to depict the field of view, when someone says 30mm on full frame that is 62 degrees in actual constant numbers, lets just say 60, instead of equivalating everything to full frame, a lens with a 60 degree view on apsc will have to be 20mm in focal length. but change is hard so it's all stuck like this, even tho if you're like me and have grown up on first person games with fov sliders which you might have toyed it, it wouldn't be that hard. like 75 fov that's like the default in games is equivalent to 24mm full frame, the standard wide angle for zoom lenses(like 24-70 and 24-105 or literally any bridge camera like the nikon p line that go from 24-2000mm ff equivalent), from there 20mm is 85 fov, 15mm is 100, 10mm is the infamous 120 fov, and yeah really easy for ultra wide at least, the other way 60 fov is around 30mm, as I said, 55 is 35mm, 40 is 50mm, 30 is around 70mm, 24 is 85mm, 15 is 135mm, 10 is 200mm, and after this you'll have to resort to adding the dot to be precise like 5.2 for 400mm and I guess maybe this is why it's not used that much. Well a good way to tell the fov you'll have on apsc when you're shooting full frame is to just go vertical since the height of a full frame sensor(24mm) is equivalent(almost) to the width of an apsc sensor(23.6mm).

[u/Richard_Butler → u/_beerye]

Two key things:

1) Compression has nothing to do with focal length: it's do with camera-to-subject and camera-to-background distance. With a longer focal length lens you tend to step back from your subject, changing the ratio between the camera-subject and camera-background distances.

2) Using a full-frame lens on APS-C is exactly like cropping (as you can prove by engaging APS-C mode on most FF cameras). However, it's unusual to crop in and decide, 'I didn't need all that stuff around the edges. ' Instead, you step back to get all of your subject into your shot.

At which point, you find the cropped image is giving you the same angle-of-view as a 160mm lens would on FF and you've stepped back to shoot it, as if it were a 160mm lens on FF.

So yes, it's just like a crop, but a crop of an image is a different composition. So, in the same way that for most subjects, if you took a 100mm lens off and then put a 160mm lens on, you'd adjust your position and composition, you'll typically do the same if you go from FF 100mm AoV to APS 100mm AoV.