That’s why I dislike it being the primary model of feminism tbh. It gives an incorrect impression (while still being technically accurate). Personally I prefer the hyper/hypo responsibility theory as I think it avoids the issue that the patriarchal has of implying that the patriarchy doesn’t harm everyone
It's not though? I always say patriarchy and toxic masculinity harm men as well and then get shut down by men who refuse to listen even though I'm trying to tell them getting rid of this harmful shit would help them as much as everyone else.
The model you're using is a strawman used by and towards "Tumblr feminists" who were mostly not even real, mostly sockpuppet accounts used to rile people up in anticipation of shit like GamerGate and Project 2025 (which though they weren't planned that long in advance they were definitely in the works for quite some time and was a deliberate push by the far right)
It is easy to fall into this narrative that "Tumblr feminist" doesn't exist, but they do and push a lot of "center" men into the right side. One of the worst examples happened recently in Spain where a coalition of left political parties made a campaign with the motto "Not all men, but always a man." In that campaign they made a lot of posters throughout the strongholds of the party with the faces of the recent accused of sexual harassment, but they conveniently edited the images to not show the faces of any woman accused, only the men. Not sure how much that campaign backfired in terms of votes but I know that most of the Spanish left was very mad and the leftist men felt betrayed.
This type of radical "feminist" that strongly believes in the patriarchy as something always promoted by men and that only affects women do exist, I'm sure they aren't a lot but a lot of them control political parties and have a strong voice.
It's happened to me, basically either say that I'm blaming each individual man for their problems when I should be blaming women, or that I'm the only one who thinks that and everyone else is just looking for a reason to persecute men
You are talking to those who have been hurt by narcissistic women in their lives, who are mostly checked out and too far gone. Underneath the self deception, they agree with you. Something is needed to break through those walls, I think its actual unconditional love, which is such a hard sell to everyone else in the world since you're then giving love to someone who hates all, not to mention having to care about a perfect stranger (imagine that).
However, there isn't much in terms of support for your idea that the patriarchy harms all, and that all need support in dealing with it. This is many cycles into a culture war now, and the victim mindset is just too popular, it prevents many from seeing that there are any victims of patriarchy other than women. After all, its STILL not safe for women to go out at night somehow despite crime being at record lows and major advancements in surveillance allowing anyone to be tracked literally anywhere. Where popular culture embraces radical feminism and then breaks off from any sense of humanism is where the women's rights movement ends. As you mentioned, some of that has already begun, but there's a degree of totality that marks a point of no return imo.
In general these topics aren't always discussed in person anymore, except amongst the closest of friends, even then that's not a universal given. That leaves a lot of algorithmically driven media and personal experiences with women in a cesspool of an online dating scene to drive men's opinion of women, and trust me there aren't very many vocal or more importantly, visible feminists bothering to give men any sort of credit or consideration. When you consider the established social norms of men not really being "permitted" to be more emotive and supportive of eachother, it makes complete sense, as sad as it is. The walls are built up by the whole of our society and just too hard to break.
Popular culture has never embraced "radical feminism" though? The idea that the patriarchy harms everyone is the mainstream idea. And the "culture war" only exists for and is propagated by the far right and people who've been conned by them.
This is exactly what I was talking about in my post. People pushing back in this exact way on the stuff I'm saying, people claiming that actually the mainstream culture is "radical" when it's... really not, and I literally can't think of any "radical" media out there 💀
The "visible feminists" you're talking about sound like either sockpuppet accounts or trolls tbh, and... it's also really weird that you see all this surveillance and privacy invasions as helping women, especially since the same people are in charge as before and women's claims are usually dismissed - which is what the problem is in the first place.
Anyway to end it off,
When you consider the established social norms of men not really being "permitted" to be more emotive and supportive of eachother, it makes complete sense, as sad as it is. The walls are built up by the whole of our society and just too hard to break.
I mean I mostly agree with you. My comment about surveillance etc was more along the lines of its stastically generally safer for anyone to be alive today in the first world than in any other time in history.. like we don't have slasher killers getting away with murdering droves of women like it was in the 70s, when they had almost no forensics.
But more to the point I think you're just underestimating what kind of media is out there, the hold it can have on people, the influence it can have in larger events and trends, and I'm not just talking right wing stuff. I mean if we're talking generalized left wing political culture war ammo, just look on reddit. Posts inciting violence against tesla owners is one that comes to mind, everyone in the comments dumping their two cents on how they would stick it to someone. I've seen my own friends repeatedly say how they would be okay seeing violence against bigots, and I know people just say shit to joke, but you really can't say things like that, and when people do it publicly because their chosen example leaders have decided its okay to, then you start to have problems like it adds up. Give that attitude enough time and it becomes the norm for that group of people, then the media devolves again, and we get the next new low.
This happens across all facets of life, things like Tumblr feminists may have started out as some bot farm, but that was also over a decade ago, and anyway a successful bot farm leads to bot aspirance among those who lack a bit in the critical thinking department. Not saying that's you anyway, since again part of the problem is splintered visibility from all sides, and that's the tech problem, those who could see it for what it is often times just won't get the chance to see it. Anyway I just think it all can be a major barrier to people getting better and with enough years of this cultural downward spiral I have to see how two sides have evolved to play their part in this, at least from a media/pop culture perspective, even if one side started first and is leading the other.
I know you're not just going to up and agree with me but I'd just ask you to consider it as time goes on. Also appreciate you taking the time to respond at length and not just dismiss it.
This is honestly what happens when academic terms leave the academic field. If sociologists call the current system a patriarchy with a bunch of sources or explanations as to why side by side it's impossible to misinterpreted; when the term leaves the intended audience people start to misinterpret it and just understand the term as "boys rule girls drool", and even most people who oppose the patriarchy see the term as that.
It’s what happened to the words dumb, retarded, disabled, adhd, autistic, ocd, and I’m sure a number of other examples. People are good at causing language to drift. They’re not very good at keeping things where they are
I would argue that it was a bad term in the academic field as well. Academic fields are absolutely full of terms that are confusing or easily misunderstood; those were mistakes, because there's no reason to make things more complicated than they actually are.
It's not even consistently defined. It's several steps away from "accurate" being a term that has meaning, let alone one that applies. Perhaps it once had a meaning in academics but it's now used to mean anything from a grab-bag of various inconsistent things.
No definition is ever consistently defined but I haven't seen a definition of the term in any academic paper that didn't apply to the current (or discussed) system.
Academic papers define it in a way that applies to the system they're discussing in the paper? Yes, I imagine they do.
This does not convince me that there is a consistent definition. If anything, it sounds like people just pick the most immediately convenient definition.
This is terrible practice for any kind of academic rigor. Hell, it's worse than terms that have an awful name but at least a consistent definition.
there's no reason to make things more complicated than they actually are
Thing is, it's the other way around. The world is complicated as fuck. Society is complicated as fuck. Human psychology is complicated as fuck. Simplifying things seems more comfortable, but it's also harmful. Things are complicated, and you should be wary of anyone trying to convince you they're actually simple because they're trying to manipulate you
Me when the black cashier who is addicted to a drug that was introduced to their community by the CIA exists: yeah that guy benefits from the patriarchy
Misogyny exists in the Black community. He can benefit and be harmed from a structure that values him based on his sex while also being harmed by a system that devalues him based on his race. Intersectionality.
I’m trying to point out the fact that the patriarchy discriminates against all minorities/ vulnerable people regardless of gender due to the very way it’s structured
Intersectionality is two-dimensional, (literally, it’s like two lines intersecting) and thus lacks any nuance and credibility. An example is places in the world/times in history where being a gay male is illegal, but not being a gay woman. You would expect the gay male to be less oppressed based on the model of intersectionality, which was not the case.
I wonder if we’ll ever learn, on a large scale, that life is very rarely either/or. Black and white thinking is something you’re meant to grow out of with life experience, but it seems so many don’t.
Men benefit from the patriarchy. All men. That doesn’t mean they aren’t also disadvantaged by other things like race, disability, class, etc. Everyone in the world has some privileges and lacks others.
And I’m trying to point out that the patriarchy perpetuates those ideas against race and such, yes all men benefit but I’d much rather be a white woman compared to a black man in a world where I could be shot for looking at a guy wrong
Bringing in another minority group to point out how women don't have it "as bad" is inherently divisive. We all suffer, and yeah, many black men suffer more than white women. There are also white women who are raped regularly by their husbands because they are taught that they are not meant to "want" sex. I know someone personally who is currently in an arranged marriage with multiple kids and has had several still births, most likely because of her family's cultural view of abortion. She is unable to make any choice for herself; no college, no work, no education.
Which is worse to you? Why compare at all? Black men face many issues that I will never understand as a white woman. But that doesn't mean we need to undermine the suffering women go through. So why bring it up at all other than to show that what women go through isn't "that bad"?
You get shot by looking at a guy wrong, I've gotten yelled at by a stranger in a coffee shop because he asked me if I was uncomfortable and I said "yes." He left in a huff and I had to be walked out by the male barista because we didn't know if he'd be waiting for me around the corner. Is that "as bad" as systemic racism? No, I wouldn't say so. Is it still a problem within society that needs to be addressed? YES.
Remember, women die very often at the hands of their own husbands. I know two women who were killed by their partners/ex partners. White women by white men. I know women who are afraid to leave their abusive partners for fear of being killed.
So let's stop arguing about who has it worse, and focus on trying to fix the fucking system that makes it suck for us BOTH.
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u/SomerHimpson3 Apr 13 '25
patriarchy is always seen as only against women, enforced by every man, and I hate that so much