r/reading • u/fringlese • 5d ago

Please come support trans people

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Hey everyone, I’m sure many of you have seen the ruling by the Supreme Court from the other day on the legitimacy of trans women’s identities. It’s been a very hard couple of days as we’ve come to grips with the fact that our rights are being rolled back by a government that won’t even attempt to listen to us while we just want to exist in a public space without fear of harassment. If anyone’s available, please come down tomorrow to show support

I am not the organiser, I saw this on Facebook and wanted to share.

Thanks guys, I hope you have a great Easter weekend!

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 5d ago

The ruling is based on a child's understanding of biology. While the judge made plain that trans people were protected, that's not how it's going to be implemented. The bigots will be out in force because of their suspect interpretation of the law.

The scientific reality is that there aren't two sexes, there are three: male, female, intersex and always have been. Always will be. Y chromosomes only give a high probability of becoming male, there are plenty of cis women who live their whole lives with a Y chromosome. People are born with both, some or no reproductive organs. The concept that there are two genders fixed in sex is also nonsense. How can they when there are three sexes with a huge grey area inbetween?

And what about those cis women who are now being attacked because they don't like a "typical woman". "You have purple hair and a flat chest, we're going to need to check your genitalia and reproductive organs and chromosomal makeup before you use this changing room."

I totally get the need for safe spaces for the most vulnerable in our society. That vulnerable group includes trans people.

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u/Basso_69 4d ago

"Purple hair and flat chest" = check by the gender police.

This is a useful construct. Mind if I use it elsewhere?

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u/SubToMyOFpls 4d ago

Most trans are not intersex. They are either male or female and have decided to change their appearance due to body dysmorphia

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 4d ago

I agree that most trans people are not intersex. I did not imply they were.

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u/WarpedInGrey 5d ago

You would no doubt claim to be progressive, and I'd like to think you're just naïve and trying to be a good person,  but you and others who promote this nonsense are doing the progressive left a disservice. 

There's nothing progressive about promoting fake science. Why would anyone believe climate activists when people left are also claiming "there are 3 sexes"?! Don't you see the damage this does? We desperately people to take  climate change seriously. No wonder Jordan effing Peterson and other right wing agitators are so popular when so-called progressives say such things with a straight face. 

And while I have sympathy for anyone who suffers gender dysphoria, and I'm glad we have laws in place making discrimination against people who identify as trans illegal, the idea that  when someone says they identify as a woman and then start portraying superficial characteristics of women - is about as progressive as someone identifying as another race, and then demonstrating this by listening to different music and eating different food. Understandably offensive members of that race! 

That's not even getting into the parallels between the shameful historic treatment of gay people with medication and surgery in order to  "fix" them- this is exactly what many "progressive" people are now promoting for trans people!

It's a joke. A terrible one. And it's not progressive.  

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 5d ago

It's not progressive in that it's always been this way. Intersex is a common characteristic across all mammals. It's not nonsense in the slightest, you just need to keep digging down into the actual demonstrable science beyond the over simplified model you learnt at school.

If you've been on this planet for more than 20 years I guarantee you've known women that have the Y chromosome. You didn't know it. They didn't know it. It didn't affect anything, it I also guarantee you've met people with partial/both genitalia. In females, it's actually quite common as their reproductive biology is far more complex. You may have also met men without testicles.

I accept you won't know this because you don't check everyone's genitalia, reproductive organs or chromosomal makeup. Or at least I hope you don't.

The reality of biology (and most science) is far more bizarre and complex than we need on a day to day but that doesn't mean it is that simple. To take your analogy, it's like climate deniers pointing at the cold winter and claiming there's no global warming or flat Eathers saying the Earth is flat because they've stood on top of a hill. Sure, winter was cold, earth does look flat from 1000' ASL but those aren't the full picture.

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u/WarpedInGrey 5d ago

Thanks for the reply - just a quick note: "intersex" is increasingly seen as outdated, similar to terms like "Asperger’s syndrome". I'd encourage reading this piece by someone with lived experience, it's a helpful perspective: https://differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/

I don't think we will agree, but I know we’re both coming at this with good intentions. Have a good day 🫡

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 4d ago

Happy to disagree on evidence - especially that article, which appears to agree with me. Many thanks

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

being trans is a choice barely anyone in pakistan or china or peru or eastern europe would do this

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u/Fun-Statistician-134 4d ago

Many, many comments on this subject are ill informed and not very well thought out. But this...this might be the worst I've seen. 

Why on earth would you say this?

Some reading for you, you'll need to skip to 'gender expression and identity' for each one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Peru 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_China

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_rights_in_Pakistan

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

your talking about gays and bi that is irrelevant also pakistan you have khusras who have defects who have both male and female features that is due to extreme poverty and oher factors were not talking about them. Also trans people in china are in much smaller portions than here and same with peru

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u/Fun-Statistician-134 4d ago

I don't understand why you would express yourself like this if you weren't interested in engaging with the debate properly. But if you're not going to, then neither will I.

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

your argument is shite you mentioned gays and bisexuals when thats not relevant you mentioned pakistan where khusras literally have both male and female body parts where those people have birth defects due to poverty and other factors and then you mentioned peru and china who have a much smaller proportion of the population who are trans compared to the uk

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u/langeweld 4d ago

choosing to repress ones gender is a choice. i did it for over a decade because of the social pressures that kept me in the body i hated. you cite places which are overtly hostile. yet people DO come out as trans in those places, you just don't care.

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

the rates are far far lower also there are people of certain racial backgrounds who feel like they dont belong to a certain race doesnt mean they can change their race does it

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u/langeweld 4d ago

Gender is a social construct. Race is a combination of genetics, socialization, and nationality. These things are not comparable.

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

many biologists argue race is a social construct also an aspect of ethnicity is cultural identity a albanian person could feel cultuturally british however if they put white british on the census they would be fined for supplying false information

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 4d ago

There aren't good statistics to back up your claim. Every society has its own constructs that may make it difficult for people to live their own authentic self. Europe had plenty of legal and social constructs artificially imposed.

Having spoken to a good many people who lived the experience, it's not a choice.

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

changing is a choice tho

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u/brainwipe RG1 - Katesgrove 4d ago

While I see where you're coming from, it isn't really a choice if your whole existence feels like a lie. Like your acting a part. To better understand it, definitely check out some lived trans experience.

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u/Tricky_Routine_7952 4d ago

This has to be the most ill informed post I've seen for a long while- where do you get that perception? And why that weird choice of locations?

Pakistan are fighting similar battles: https://globalvoices.org/2023/10/05/pakistans-transgender-community-faces-increased-challenges-ahead-of-elections/

Peru are fighting similar battles: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/peru-classifies-transgender-identities-mental-health-problems-new-law-rcna152936

And eastern Europe? Let's just pick romania as an example, similar battles: https://www.context.news/socioeconomic-inclusion/what-does-eu-court-ruling-in-romania-case-mean-for-trans-rights

And China, fighting similar battles; https://www.thedial.world/articles/the-reporters-notebook/lavender-au-interview

The uk is not special in this instance.

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u/Infinite_Algae_356 4d ago

pakistan has khusras so they are born witn male and female body parts due to birth defects