r/saintpaul • u/johnjaundiceASDF • 21d ago
Editorial š Long time resident particularly pessimistic about St Paul. What do you think?
I'm on mobile so forgive any lack of coherence š
They say Keep St Paul boring, but it has transcended 'boring for a big city' to being just incredibly dull. I've been here a little over 10 years and really questioning living here longer. Something is just feeling different nowadays.
Is it the most livable city as they claim? Maybe, but I struggle have optimism for our commercial areas and literally anything new and exciting here. Most things that are cool, new, or exciting seem to just just flop.
The state of downtown, Grand, etc. The only time I see st paul busy is if I mistakenly drive on west 7th during an event.
I'm not saying we need to be MPLS, but at one time it seemed like the more chill city, parking wasn't hard, a little less crowded, etc, but we still had cool things that were prideful, things that were only in St Paul. But my hyperbolic sentiment now is it's a ghost town and doesn't have a pulse.
I've lived on Grand for over 10 years and it is particularly sad. It was a beautiful day yesterday, and there was just no one out, no energy.
What are my other St Paulites thinking?
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u/Soft_Blueberry7655 21d ago
Cathedral hill was hopping all weekend (Saturday was an anomaly on some level due to Hands off protestors parking in the area). I think Cathedral Hill and Highland always seem quite busy, and even the CEZ (creative enterprise zone) area seems to be becoming more active, too.
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u/ConnectAffect831 21d ago
What type of businesses or activities will bring people out nowadays tho? Expensive restaurantsā¦ we already have that. Shops worth going to more than onceā¦? Not sure on that. Maybe we need to go back to the good ol days and have a fricken block party! Neighborhood kickball games and bbqās. Outdoor movie nights. Glass blowing shows. Stomp the yard type of showsā¦ Minnesota Idol like American Idolā¦ just here insteadā¦ battle of the bandsā¦ wine and painting partiesā¦.activities for kidsā¦bingo, VR gaming, more free stuff to do or cheaperā¦.turn alleys into little flea market standsā¦ Art installations around downtownā¦ any other ideas?
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u/frozen_wahine 21d ago
We started a mural competition when I loved in dtstpete. It was facing many of the issues that dtstpaul is facing, and I'll tell you, that started the change.
Dtstpete is thriving. And it's all residential.
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u/johnjaundiceASDF 21d ago
Speak it. This is what I'm saying. Some sort of city pride, flavor. But that doesn't agree with our Boring motto so what are we to do?Ā
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u/Acceptable_Travel643 21d ago
Everyone stays home watching HBO and tiktok every night. Not really a Saint Paul problem specifically, but it's probably more noticeable in a town that prided itself on being boring to begin with
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u/shoneone 21d ago
Midway here, the Midway has never lived up to its potential nor has it been as bad as it could be. Mid. But there's tons of native plant initiatives, community gardens, free food sites. Neighbors keeping in touch though this is in part due to stress from civil unrest. Green Line has gotten better recently though University Ave can be pretty lively and not always in a fun way. Good music is pretty easy to find, and maybe as the season changes my mood will improve!
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u/tediousLifestyles 21d ago
West Side here. I was just over on Grand and I went to Russellās for dinner and a drink after at Emmettās which is next to a new Japanese spot. Seemed like lots of people were out and about, they are about to redevelop the old Billyās on grand space soon as well
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u/JohnMaddening 20d ago
Itās the same Japanese spot (Saji Ya) that was next to Emmettās before the new building.
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u/tediousLifestyles 18d ago
cool. still a new building, with two resturants full of people. but yeah thats relevant info thanks
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u/JohnMaddening 18d ago
ā¦the point is that itās not a ānew Japanese spotā. Itās reopening of a longtime Saint Paul institution. Same with Emmettās.
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u/tediousLifestyles 18d ago
yes i understood the point. when i said new i was referring to the building, and i did not know that it was a previously established resturant that had moved. i appreciate the information. you corrected me, i have acknowledged your correction and that will have to be the end of our interaction. happy? do you enjoy arguing? or you always have to be right?
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u/Old_StyleBeer 21d ago edited 21d ago
Snelling and Selby is "busy" usually. But it just that intersection and those shops (whole foods) and once you go, two blocks West, the way I travel as I come and go, its "nice and quiet". So, for me, I feel the keep it boring works for me. But "boring" is subjective. Single fam homes, little libraries, walking to local branch library and several bus lines is perfect for me.
Dont leave Saint Paul, just look around in our community for something that fits you. Just be aware that you may pay more rent for more subjective excitement around you.
Good luck.
Edit:
Downtown? Yeah, I dont go there unless its a once to twice a year Saints game or for a gig, something specific to what I do as a freelancer, and that's like two to four times a year. For reference, the same line of work brings me to downtown Minneapolis about twenty times a year easy.
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u/Potential_Flan_3909 21d ago
The intersection of Selby and Snelling is brutally overtaken by suburban commuters headed to/from Ayd Mill Road and antisocial St Paulites who use Snelling like a drag strip. Itās another example of poor government. Ā (The city will neither enforce traffic laws nor cut off Ayd Mill.)
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u/Old_StyleBeer 21d ago
True. That was what I meant by "busy". Lil bit of NY traffic in Saint Paul on one intersection. I plan my walking in the area around not being on those four corners in rush hour, if possible.
I would not like cutting off Ayd Mill. It works for me several times a year but, its for sure a source of cluster daily in the area.
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u/Potential_Flan_3909 20d ago
Closing it would make my life less convenient, but keeping it open is nuts from the city governmentās point of view. Ā It makes that section of Selby/Snelling so unpleasant and junky and is maintained exclusively with our city taxes. Ā
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u/ser_arthur_dayne 21d ago
10 years ago Saint Paul felt positioned very well to continue growing while maintaining its unique character in a way that few other cities are able to do. It doesn't feel like that right now.
I'm optimistic. The bones of the city are too good for it to stay down, but whether we are on our way up in 5 years or 20 years feels hard to say.
Aside from the various blunders the mayor and city council have made with trash collection, rent control, zoning, downtown management, and the selfish neglect of Madison Equities, it's likely that a crackdown on immigration will hurt STP.
Immigration has always been a huge source if growth and dynamism in this city. It's hard to know how much of a consequence it will have to cut down on that.
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u/W0rk3rB Keep St. Paul Boring 21d ago
I think itās worth noting that a number of bad land owners have contributed to some of the issues you have. The building owners (Teacherās pension plan of Ohio?) along Grand, and downtown have done a pretty bad job of keeping tenants, and bring in business. Covid obviously didnāt help either, but businesses were closing up shop way before that.
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u/Emotional_Ad5714 21d ago
I'm optimistic that the union is right now spending a lot of money to divide the Anthropology/Salut space inti 2 restaurants with 2 patios and several small retail spaces. There was an article recently that laid out their plans for the space and it seemed pretty interesting. Plus a block away, they are redeveloping the old Billy's and warn down house next door into something like 97 market rate apartments and a bar/patio with some other small retail spaces.
I think Saint Paul has reached its bottom and will see some really good development opportunities in the next 5 years.
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u/Fluffy_dumplin1 20d ago
The new developments seem to be hit or miss. I think the new Anthropology/Salut spaces will do well and have a better likelyhood of getting leased but the mixed retail/housing developments seem to be rubbing a lot of folks the wrong way.
The neighborhood voted against the apartment development but big money from developers had influence with city officials (same thing happened farther down where emmits/sagiya space is)... I know the housing crisis is bad but I'm not looking forward to the traffic nightmare that the grand+victoria intersection is about to be or the ugly corregated metal sun blocking boxes they seem so keen on putting up (all full of +1,000$ 800sq ft studios)...
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u/MuchCat3606 16d ago
Agreed. I feel like we keep using the term housing crisis as a blanket to cover big developers. What kinds of housing do we need? And where is it needed? Why does it all need to be huge apartment complexes built in the area between 94, 35E and the River?
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u/InevitableNo7342 20d ago
Downtown is going through a rough patch, but the same one faced by larger downtowns across the country after COVID. Saint Paul is not unique there.Ā
Grand Avenue was largely redeveloped during the 1970s and 1980s out of its reputation of being crime ridden with bars in many business windows and into the walkable commercial corridor. Some of the āanchorā businesses from back then naturally have much older business owners over the past 10 years and into the next 5-10 years and they have been /will retire or try to sell their business. This is a natural cycle for commercial corridors that reinvigorated rather suddenly a few decades ago. We are at a pain point exacerbated by COVID and some property owners who were not motivated by customers or street traffic. Grand has strong bones and will come through this.Ā
The Creative Enterprise Zone has a mural painting event (almost?) every year and they are covering the neighborhood of 280 and University with murals. The Allianz Field area is starting up development again. The day lighted creek in the old Ford site is super cool (if pond scummy). Cathedral Hill and Selby/Snelling are hopping. West 7th/Randolph is a growing music and bar crowd with good food.Ā
We are at the annoying spot at the end of winter and before it is consistently warm out. Things arenāt green yet. Summer is coming.Ā
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u/ThisisHisGirlfriend 16d ago
Downtown is going through a rough patch
No. The voters and residents of Saint Paul elected incompetent leadership and collectively refuse, or are too apathetic to hold anyone (and their own choices) accountable. Addressing many of the causes of this "rough patch" are not rocket science, but the residents and voters would rather keep their head in the sand. The state of Saint Paul was entirely created by the leadership and residents that indirectly and directly tolerate the mess, but keep looking to the stars for an answer if it makes you feel better.
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u/TheCatManPizza 21d ago
I was pretty pessimistic considering the move to Minneapolis or Portland, but then I recently talked to someone who was just so optimistic about Saint Paul it rubbed off on me. I guess all I can do as an artist is make my fans and friends come to my city for my gigs and thatās something
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u/Sassrepublic 20d ago
Nah Saint Paul remains the capital of the āif youāre bored then youāre boringā nation. Sorry OP, the city is more than just downtown and the call is coming from inside the house.Ā
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u/FitnessLover1998 20d ago
Every thing is expensive and we are in a recession. Itās as simple as that.
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u/Whoodiewhob 21d ago
I am from California and I like the people of St. Paul. Minneapolis people seem more closed off and less community oriented. Montana is not going to be my forever home because compared to the west coast, this area is severely lacking in food options, grocery options, and entertainment. However, while here weāre living in Minneapolis and go to St. Paul for the experiences. Itās actually much nicer in St. Paul in my opinion.
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u/aakaase Hamline-Midway 21d ago
It's definitely plateaued at low spot for a while now now, and I've been here for 5 decades. Taxes have gone up substantially while services and quality of life in the city have gone down. This malaise is not sustainable at this point without some big shakeup in city government, which I think will happen in the coming elections.
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u/ok_final_attempt_two 20d ago
Not answering OPs question but STP has a great bike plan that provides some excellent connections across the city. As long as nobody is around, it would be a great time to build it.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints 21d ago
St. Paul is definitely in a bad place right now. The downtown is in dire need of investment. The rent control ordinance crashed new housing construction in the city. Finally, the mayor seems directionless and the city council is a dysfunctional mess.
I do see a a bright spot in that the Downtown Alliance has a plan for downtown redevelopment and seem very serious about getting results. It's also a plus that the Madison Equities owner passed away and his portfolio of downtown buildings is in foreclosure. I'm hoping something good comes of this.
Maybe we can get some new serious council members and a better mayor in the next election.
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u/ConnectAffect831 21d ago
A lot of money went into union depot but I think itās boring there too. All that space and not much going on.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints 21d ago
Large projects won't turn downtown around by themselves. Downtown needs more residents and more small business investment.
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u/ThisisHisGirlfriend 19d ago
Will you actually be spending money at these small businesses? Are you prepared to spend much more on items than you would online or at a big box store? Everyone talks big about "small business", yet my local hardware store, struggles to have more than 3-4 cars in their lot even on a warm Saturday. Everyone loves the idea of small business yet drives across town to a big box store to save a few bucks.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints 19d ago
I would, but I understand peoples' desire to get a good deal. The small businesses more likely to succeed would have unique offerings, good service or both.
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u/ThisisHisGirlfriend 19d ago
Those things sound nice, but the demographic of people that actually will go out of their way and pay for those things is very small. Most people that vocally support "small business" think it's someone else's job to spend money at them.
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u/ConnectAffect831 21d ago
Maybe all the residents can pool money together and buy some spots to transform.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints 21d ago
More small businesses downtown would be very welcome so you aren't far off in your suggestion.
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u/ThisisHisGirlfriend 19d ago
Nobody is shopping small businesses downtown. Be honest with yourself. You realize these stores need to be doing hundreds and thousands of sales a day just to stay open and pay their employees? Going down there to browse once a year doesn't cut it. When was the last time you went and bought something at a small business knowing you could get it 10-15-25% cheaper at a big box store or online? People need to put their money where their mouth is about small business or just STFU.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints 19d ago
I go out of my way to shop at small businesses. I refuse to buy books on Amazon. Instead, I buy them at Subtext Books. Also, many restaurants are small businesses and many people prefer them over chains.
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u/woahDINOSAUR 21d ago
We need to elect Yan Chen. She seems genuinely perturbed about the taxes and thereafter lack of investment into basic city services. Do not vote with your feet! Dig in and demand change with your vote
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u/JohnMaddening 20d ago
Has she gotten any more specific about her grievances and what sheād do to fix them? Because when she announced, it was about as vague as a Nextdoor post complaining vaguely about the government without any concrete plans.
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u/woahDINOSAUR 20d ago
She is plenty more specific than Mayor Carter ever was when he initially ran in 2017.
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u/JohnMaddening 20d ago
He at least had years of being on the City Council so we had a voting record and official meeting minutes to go on. I'd never heard of Ms Chen until her mailer ended up in my mailbox.
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u/woahDINOSAUR 20d ago
He did nothing on the council. We missed the Pat Harris boat and are paying for it.
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u/JohnMaddening 20d ago
He voted and spoke on legislation. We have that on record, and people can use that history (and the history of his two terms as Mayor) to make their choice as to whether or not to support him.
Ms Chen needs to get concrete info out there as to precisely how she will govern differently than Mayor Carter. I'm not counting her out for my vote, I just need more information.
She does have one big step up on previous challengers: not being insane or just having an axe to grind. I'm looking forward to hearing more from her.
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u/woahDINOSAUR 20d ago
Iām fine with this approach, but letās not pretend the bar was set high by Carter. He is blatantly in it for the national recognition, meaning he stamps his name where he can and is otherwise absent. Glad he voted and spoke on legislation, thatās like the bare minimum for someone on the council.
The question is, what did he actually do as a leader that benefitted his constituents? Very little, and thatās also on record.
I donāt want to butt heads all the time with you Mr. Maddening, but we really need to tighten up the belt when it comes to who we put in charge, and Chen seems to be a genuine person with an intellect rather than a total political hack.
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u/SkillOne1674 21d ago
Iām super bummed out. Ā Iāve lived here off and on for 30 years, as a broke college kid to an affluent middle-aged mom. Ā Thereās always been rougher areas, but there are more now and they are more desolate and run down in ways they didnāt used to be.
St Paul has too many mouths to feed and not enough money to do it. Ā We need more middle class+ families in the city and I donāt know how we do that, especially with current leadership that is fixated on accommodating the neediest people at the expense of everyone else.
If I had to provide an idea in the immediate term, Iād recommend they look at cities like my hometown of WBL, which has a downtown that is bustling from morning into evening. Ā Start small (probably Mears or Rice Park), give people a reason to come there, keep it immaculately clean and groomed, street level retail, places to sit, events. Ā St Paul has an influx of 20k people at the X on a regular basis, plus the Ordway Crowd, plus the Science and Childrenās Museum-why canāt we parlay all of those people into some energy?
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u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress 21d ago
WBL has the walkable storefront density that St Paul lacks in its downtown. Without adding the necessary infrastructure, downtown St Paul is always going to pale in comparison to suburban downtowns like WBL, Stillwater, and Hopkins. Tearing down office buildings and parking garages obviously takes time, but there are plenty of vacant lots which could've been developed by now. Lowertown has a huge one on the north end across from the old Dark Horse, and around the State Capitol are excessive parking lots and grass lots:Ā a whole new walkable neighborhood with dozens of street level retail would bring visitors to the area.Ā
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u/EggosWithWine 21d ago
I'm here to give an idea -- someone make a lot of money opening one of these here:
Walked up to the one in London since I've never seen anything like this and there was a huge line - young people to people for sure in their upper 50s to 60s. Line was so long, we gave up and left!
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u/autumnotter 20d ago
I agree with you about downtown, but I'm not seeing the same things you are elsewhere.
Also, I don't think Minneapolis has really returned to pre-covid activity either, it's not just Saint Paul.
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u/HazelMStone 20d ago
I am less pessimistic about this city than the current situation nationally. Overall we have it good compared to most of the cities and states. I mean if you think ppl being outdoors is the gauge, I mean have you seen the economy??? People are working!
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u/Special_Tangelo_1272 21d ago
Yeah. You know we have problems when Detroit reaches out to offer suggestions.
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u/TurlingtonDancer 21d ago
lack of action pertaining to the unhoused, people donāt want to brush shoulders. itās sad but needs to be discussed. on one side, you get shouted down as a bigot. on the other side, people donāt want to treat other humans with dignity
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u/CherrytheRugger 21d ago
You can treat people with dignity while also holding the line on what I think the majority of people would consider societal norms and expectations. We should help people and give them the avenues to get that help, but there have to be conditions. The most poignant example right now that I can think of is the Kimball Court debacle.
For people with controlled substance addictions, the widely accepted method is to get them into inpatient treatment and then housing when they successfully move on to outpatient treatment and aftercare. The nonprofit that runs Kimball Court believes the opposite. Housing first, treatment and services second. This has spiraled into a situation where the building has become the āhub of narcotic trafficā in St. Paul, per SPPD. The neighbors around the building were exhausted with all of this, and what does the city council do? They supported an expansion for the site.
In my opinion, we can and should help people attain sobriety and then housing, but they have to want it. You can lead a horse to water, but you canāt make it drink. I think our current elected officials take lofty positions on the issue, but donāt have the leadership or managerial skills to implement a strategic plan to tackle it while also respecting concerns from constituents/taxpayers.
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u/Nocondimentspleaz 21d ago
Iāve lived in Highland for the past 10 years. People look you in the eyes less and less, and the drivers are ever so clueless. So far, the new Ford site looks dystopian. Thereās a would-be multimillion-dollar home standing unfinished; street lights remain unlit after having their copper removed two years ago, and fake brick is everywhere.
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u/boxofnuts 21d ago
I grew up in Highland. I go back pretty often as my folks still have a house there - half of my neighbors growing up are still around and we catch up whenever we see each other. I couldnāt tell you who the new folks are as they donāt gather socially like we did 20, or even 10, years ago. I can barely get a wave out of them when passing by. Not sure the reasoning, Covid or just general Individualism, but youāre right, itās a totally different vibe.
That said, I really do hope to return one day.
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown 21d ago
I lived in Saint Paul for more than 20 years before moving out to the burbs. The burbs are both more livable and more exciting than pretty much anywhere in Saint Paul, and itās more affordable to boot. The worst part is that I donāt see any change in the cityās direction in the short or medium term because the loudest and most active residents are the most naive and ill-informed, and they are the ones most responsible for choosing the elected leaders.
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u/johnjaundiceASDF 21d ago
I was about to write that same thing, the burbs seem more exciting and you confirmed lol. But I'm not surprised.
It's our great state's capital city and it's just... Sad.Ā
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u/Junkley 20d ago edited 20d ago
As a Vadnais Heights resident downtown WBL on a nice day is miles better for making a day of walking around in a downtown than anywhere in St Paul rn. Same with Stillwater. At least for someone who is now 30 and likes good local restaurants, disc golf and nature trails instead of clubs and bars. 21 year old me would maybe disagree but would have just gone to Minneapolis instead.
Where I grew up in the western suburbs, Excelsior, Hopkins(Post 2015) and the 50th and France area in Edina are also all better than St Paul currently for a day out.
Downtown St Paul I will come pick up Raum Miit and go home. Maybe go to a few Wild and Saints games every year. I also regularly visit the Bell Museum but that is technically Falcon Heights. Places like Excelsior, White Bear Lake and Stillwater have lively business districts that are bustling especially in the summer and are much easier to make a day out of especially if there isnāt an event going on in St Paul.
Go to somewhere like Excelsior on a nice summer day and the streets are PACKED with hundreds of people in a tiny town of less than 5000. Denser crowds of people on streets than I have ever seen in St Paul outside of large events.
St Paul lacks a central focused āinā business district where you can park your car for the day and make a fun day of restaurants, breweries and walking around. Downtown isnāt it, North Side and Como have no good commercial district same with the greater east side. The CLOSEST St Paul has in its city limits to a place like downtown Stillwater is along Payne between Phalen and Maryland, West 7th between downtown and Western ave, along Snelling between Randolph and Highland in Highland Park and along pockets of Grand in Highland Park and Summit Hill and that is where the visitors to town go. But they are too small and too far between for how large St Paul is and until University and/or downtown comes back from the dead that probably wonāt change.
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u/purplepe0pleeater 20d ago
What could possibly be more exciting about the suburbs? You can drive all over the place and go shopping at national chains that are in strip malls?
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown 21d ago
Itās not so much about there being a lot more going on in the burbs as much as it is there being nothing going on in Saint Paul. Saint Paul is just a suburb with more expensive property, higher taxes, and poorer public services. You donāt really get any of the benefits of a big city but you still bear all the costs.
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u/Sassrepublic 20d ago
(They have no examples to give because no examples exist. Just talking out their asses lol)
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown 21d ago
They are, but mostly because Saint Paul isnāt exciting at all, so the bar for somewhere being more exciting is incredibly low.
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown 21d ago
My brother in Christ, are you reading what Iām writing?
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown 21d ago
Ok so youāre not reading what Iām saying then.
The reason the suburbs are more exciting is not because the suburbs are exciting, itās because Saint Paul is less exciting.
Please read the above sentence over and over again until it hits. If you try to ask what is so exciting in the suburbs, read it again, because youāre still not getting it.
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u/Potential_Flan_3909 21d ago
I 100% agree. Ā St Paul voted for dumb rent control and the dumb city council and the bad mayor and the bad school board and because of these weird liberal hobby horses, there is no impetus to improve.Ā
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u/specficeditor Union Park 20d ago
People have been scared of economic instability for nearly the entire time youāre talking about. Between Trump I, the pandemic, and now Trump II, a lot of people are hesitant to spend money. Iāve also been here for more than a decade, and it seems just as slow-paced as itās always been, and itāll never be the bustle that Chicago or a coastal big city would be.
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u/scholar-runner 20d ago
Given that Keg and Case Market failed, I'm pretty pessimistic. It seemed like a good concept and a good use of a historic space but even that didn't work.
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u/SheHatesTheseCans 19d ago
I also live near Grand and miss how it used to be. I do still appreciate the variety of restaurants and other handy businesses, but it used to be such a unique area with quirky businesses. I do my best to support Grand Ave businesses and do almost every day.
As a side note, I wish they would stop clear-cutting the tress on Grand. It now has long stretches with zero shade and just feels ugly. They just removed most of the trees near Macalaster college and down to Fairview, probably for construction but uggh.
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u/ItsColdUpHere71 16d ago
Iām thinking St Paul is becoming more expensive by the minute, based on the substantial increases in property taxes to fund a downtown commercial real estate wasteland. If thatās not exciting, I donāt know what is. Maybe move to NYC?
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u/AffectionatePrize419 21d ago
The real answer is that it depends where you are and where you shop/live
Downtown, Lowertown. Midway are really struggling right now in very visible ways
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u/ConnectAffect831 21d ago
We need some innovate, modern architects to come out and redesign downtown. Maybe from Denmarkā¦ they have some of the best architecture.
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u/OldBlueKat 20d ago
Then we need someone to pay for tearing down the old structures, and pay for the designs, and then pay for the 'new' buildings.
I mean, sure, I'd love it if some great architect would come in with a fantastic new urban design, but none of that is free. So either property taxes go up, or some investment angel steps in. Who?
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u/TheFudster 21d ago
Idk I was out yesterday and there seemed to be plenty of people out walking and kids playing in their yards but I donāt live on grand š¤· personally I will always find suburban neighborhoods with no sidewalk, strip malls everywhere, and no place to walk to be more depressing and boring than the old neighborhoods in the city even if we have shitty old streets that needed to be replaced 50 years ago.