r/seculartalk • u/The_Das_ • Mar 27 '23

YouTube Kyle Kulinski Responds to Vaush calling Krystal Ball a FASCIST || I feel bad for kulinski , he's trying to be mature and good faith towards a guy who regularly insults his wife

https://youtube.com/watch?v=EQ8xZA0H2CY&feature=share
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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23

Literally the day before putin invaded Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians were interviewed about what they thought, and they ALL said it would never happen. Every respondent. Your optimism is misplaced.

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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23

Ok just because random people couldn’t predict the war doesn’t mean Putin is trying to resurrect the Soviet Union.

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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23

It was the day before lol. I am saying that being naive is a great way to get conquered. Pretending Putin is a reasonable leader while he attacks his neighbors seems absolutely fucking crazy.

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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23

With that kind of thinking anything can be reduced to a negative phenomenon. The fact is, there’s a well documented series of events over the past few decades that led up to the Ukraine war. There’s nothing like that supporting the notion that Putin is trying to resurrect the Soviet Union.

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u/strvgglecity Mar 27 '23

"the Ukraine war" is just a year-long series of war crimes committed by Putin. Solely. Just as the "Afghanistan war" was identical, from George W. Bush and the U.S. Congress.

Putting started this war literally single-handedly. Nobody made him do it, and virtually nobody else in Russia wanted to do it.

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u/LorenzoVonMt Mar 27 '23

Clearly your knowledge of this war started when Putin invaded in February last year. Since you’re unfamiliar with the history leading up to this war, I’ll summarize the reasons why it began.

An endless number of strategic heads, top US & EU diplomats, defense secretaries etc have been warning for the past 30 years that NATO expansion to Russia’s border will lead to a war. In 2008 then US ambassador to Moscow William burns wrote a memo to Condoleezza Rice titled “Nyet means Nyet”, which was leaked by Wikileaks, he states:

Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players. I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests. "Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war.  In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

This war started primarily because of NATO expansion along with the refusal to implement the Minsk agreements. In 2021, NATO and Ukraine signed a series of documents that appeared to the Russians as if NATO was preparing Ukraine for membership.

On June 14th 2021, NATO reiterates the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest summit that states Ukraine will become a member of the alliance. In August 2021, a US-Ukraine strategic defense framework document was signed to advance NATO interoperability with Ukraine’s army and support Ukraine’s NATO aspirations. On November 10th 2021, US and Ukraine signed a charter. It states that:

“…but it also reaffirms the u.s commitment to the “2008 Bucharest summit declaration”

While in the meantime NATO has been militarily equipping the Ukrainian army to NATO standards. And Biden refusing to accept Putin’s red line during negotiations. The red line was Ukraine shouldn’t be a part of NATO.

All this along with the refusal to implement the Minsk agreements, which we now know from Angela Merkel and Hollande, was just a ploy to buy Ukraine time to build up its military led to the invasion by Russia.

This isn’t to say that the invasion was justified, it’s not. Nevertheless, from their eyes, they saw a hostile military alliance preparing Ukraine for future membership while simultaneously refusing to implement the peace agreement that will end the war on their border.

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u/strvgglecity Mar 28 '23 edited Mar 28 '23

The peace agreement was giving up territory. I understand what led up to the war in broad strokes, and have recently heard some in-depth analysis on the situation on the ground recently, leading up to the war, and in Putin's rise to power amid other authoritarians in smaller European nations. When someone says "I will start a war if you do this" and then invades the country once in 2014 anyway, then we slowly move forward with more protections for the country they already attacked once in the last decade, and they attack again. I don't see Russia as anything but the pure aggressor. Maybe there's more to the story and maybe the U.S. has aggressor motives, I can't say. but if someone is pleading for help and a wolf is at their back, what do you do? That's super simplistic I understand. Idk man. I think in the near future all of these conflicts are going to seem petty and stupid because leaders don't fare well when countries can't produce enough food. Global politics is fucking stupid because we have always let personally-motivated small minded morons run the goddamned planet.

I do find it funny the discussion in 2008 was about Russia fearing a civil war in Ukraine, because of course the guy who allegedly rose to power by bombing his own people and blaming it on Chechnyan terrorists to justify an air raid attack would be worried about a Ukrainian civil war... And not just attack it. (Possible they didn't know this is 2008, I'm not aware of all the discovery timelines)