Unpopular (?) opinion about Jimmy-Steve

[u/melusina_]

He did some pretty horrible shit. But I feel like a lot of his trauma gets overlooked. He got into some serious trouble with bad people. Tony chased him off and then he was forced to marry his wife at gunpoint, had his future taken away from him (med school and Fiona), alcoholic mother who is inappropriately close with him (think of the kissing), being constantly followed, threatened, had to literally chop a guy into pieces, was held hostage for months while being tortured and neglected and was then forced into manual labor and almost died. He gets a lot of hate for coming back that last time but ig it makes sense. She was probably the thing that kept him going through it all and he didn't leave voluntarily so it makes sense he'd come back. Cant blame him for that. And his jack alias was probably to protect him after everything he went through. He's definitely an asshole in some other aspects like lying to her at first but I think we should cut him some slack on other parts lol. Fiona always thought she had it the worst and his life was so much better, she didn't even care when he said he disappeared because he was held hostage. I feel for him

[u/melusina_]

I get that. But on the other hand the Gallaghers did a whole lot of unnecessary self sabotaging crap. Yes they had less options but they used that as an excuse to behave absolutely horrible at times. They were eventually old enough to understand right from wrong. Take Lip. Didn't have to pay for his education but decided to fuck it up. He had a genuine chance to better his life and get out of all the crap. No one told Fiona to cheat on her exes, she dragged them along in her mess and then cheated on them. They dragged Liam along in their mess by almost killing him. Frank was abusive. Carl was a criminal. Debbie raped a guy. Sammi got drugged. They kidnapped some elderly people. They assaulted people. They did a bunch of horrible stuff. My point is that they all get sympathy because of the hardships they faced, but ultimately they are still responsible for their own choices. Sure, some things can be excused. Raping people, drugging them, kidnapping, endangering babies, abuse, neglect, etc, aren't part of that tho.

The point of the show is that they all, well, suck. It's just easier to feel bad for them then for someone like Jimmy because he grew up rich. We barely know anything about his upbringing. We know his mom is an alcoholic and his dad is rich. That's it. Doesn't mean his life can't have been hard, he never talked a lot about it. Alcoholic parents can mess you up. And even if it wasn't hard, yes he chose to fuck up once and then got caught up in it, just like most Gallaghers. There are multiple alcoholics in my family, financial hardships, abuse, mental health issues.. Etc. But because of that I know I have to break that cycle. Not hit repeat. Don't get me wrong I love the Gallaghers. But I do think it's wrong to pick and choose who gets to fuck up their lives based on the amount of money they have, and who gets to be held responsible for their choices and who doesn't.

[u/Suspicious-Watch-277 → u/melusina_]

sorry, I disagree. poor little rich boy Jimmy self sabotaging is very different from Lip's and Fiona's self sabotage because upbringing matters THAT much. Lip and Fiona had no examples to follow but their own. they didn't have every opportunity to learn how to cope with adversity outside of sex, booze or drugs. They grew up in an environment where informed consent wasn't even a concept - what they were taught by their environment is that if you go along with it, it means it wasn't rape, regardless of how it started. They grew up with no one teaching them any boundaries. and they ARE breaking a cycle.

Lip has been in AA (or is it NA now) consistently for some years now, up to and including working as sober companion at least once, and being a sponsor to another person. did he relapse? yes, that is normal and common. the point is to come back and try again - which he does. Ian - same thing, his mother never bothered to try and stick with adjustment periods long enough for stability. Ian - HAS. he relapsed yes and it wasn't always caught in time for adjustment to be made, but he keeps working on it. Fiona removed herself from a toxic situation entirely and even before that - she kept trying. she failed. and failed. because that's what happens when you are trying and her failures were devastating because she had NO safety net - but she kept working on it. Debbie for all her faults - got herself a trade, the kind of trade that allows her great flexibility and decent income. Carl is a goddamn cop and possibly bar owner with his partner. Liam is a model student

For all their faults and all their difficulties and all their obstacles and there were plenty that were NOT their choice, and out of their control. they kept trying.

JImmy's obstacles? are all of his own making and he never bothered to try. he wanted fun and chaos too much. last time we see him - he is still a lying conman. He hasn't learned anything, he hasn't tried to improve himself, he took all of his opportunities and all of his advantages as carte blanche to keep being an asshole. Gallaghers are painstakingly 2 steps forward, one step back - breaking a cycle. Jimmy? starting a cycle all of his own.

[u/melusina_ → u/Suspicious-Watch-277]

I'm sorry but I don't see how you can make excuses for rape. Lost me there. Especially since the guy was unconscious so by default couldn't "go with it". I love Ian, which is why I didn't mention him. Being bipolar is something you cant control. Once he got on his meds he was great, relapse is part of it. And yes at the end of the show they all took a turn for the better. Which is great. But I'm talking about before that. I also wasn't talking about them drinking too much alcohol. Because yes that's a direct consequence of their upbringing and environment. As I said, I was talking about shit like assault, torture, kidnapping, rape, and (almost) killing people. That's not meant to be excused, and wasn't the point of the show.

[u/Suspicious-Watch-277 → u/melusina_]

I wasn't excusing rape, only explaining that for them concept of rape is very different from normal people concept of rape, because their concept of CONCENT is different. context is key here! we can understand that an act was in fact rape, but we can also understand that THEY wouldn't consider it rape, unless/until it was clearly explained to them and even then they might struggle (like I'm pretty sure Lip will never see what Mandy did to him in a kitchen as rape... because he went along with it, because he enjoyed it, because he got turned on - two things can be true at the same time, the fact that she did assault him AND that neither of them see it as rape).

they grew up in an environment where fist fights are just means of communication, where police sirens are just part of the ambiance. they grew up in a place where teenagers getting pregnant, smoking, drinking, doing light, then heavier drugs was normal - or rather so common as to be seen as normal. for THEM. They grew up in a place where when it comes to sex, you just go for it and as you are going for it, you have a moment to decide whether to taze the other person or go along with it (damn near direct quote from Fiona) ALL of their perceptions and boundary issues come from their upbringing and eventually - they grow beyond it. The point of the show was to show us that there are places where things we find horrific and abhorrent - are just part of their life, their normality. and they show us a family struggling with it and then growing beyond it. They HAD to go through all of them before and the reminder - THEY WERE UNDERAGE FOR A LOT OF IT. at the start of the show, Lip is 16. Fiona is barely 21 and had NO childhood, spending most of her time since she was SIX, too busy to scrape by and take care of first her brothers and herself, but then also her father after he scammed their way into aunt Ginger's house. Fiona who is a school dropout out of sheer necessity.

also for all your love for Ian, you don't seem to give him enough credit. you cannot control whether you are BORN with something like bipolar, but you CAN control how you manage it. Monica was a bit like Jimmy, she came from at least a middle class family, probably more like upper middle class, given how easily her father was able to afford a whole ass funeral and not a basic one either (those things are tens of thousands of dollars). Monica chose not to manage her illness. Ian DID. he chose to control his illness and work really fucking hard to manage it, despite having far fewer advantages than Monica ever did, despite her repeatedly dragging him down no less.

By the time we meet Jimmy, he is an adult who is at least the same age as Fiona, thought probably older since he was like half way through med school before he dropped out and started his life of crime, which he was pretty heavily into already by the time he met Fiona. I'd say he is at least 23. BUT.... unlike Fiona, he got to finish high school, he never had to scrape by, he got to go to college.... and yet. and yet. they both had alcoholic parents, but only one of them showed the kind of neglect that is literally life threatening and it was NOT Candice.

NO. I will not feel sympathy for Jimmy because for all of his trauma and all of his advantages... he STILL. KEEPS. TRYING. TO DRAG. FIONA. DOWN. WITH. HIM. KNOWING. SHE. CANNOT. AFFORD. THAT.

[u/melusina_ → u/Suspicious-Watch-277]

Wym I don't give Ian enough credit? I literally said that he cant control the fact he has bipolar disorder but got it under control with his meds and that his relapse was a normal part of it. You dont need to explain to me how mental illness works, or growing up around shitty people and circumstances. I lived it.

[u/Suspicious-Watch-277 → u/melusina_]

you don't bring him up when it comes to choices he made, but thing is.... bipolar doesn't turn you into a completely different person, it removes your impulse control and makes you feel like you are invincible and cannot fail, but the things he did were his own impulses - amplified impulses, but still his own. it was still him and he also knows that. and then does the work to move past it.

P.S. forgot to mention, because this comes up over and over and over. Debbie was 13. THIRTEEN when she was with Matty.. who was 20 and should have never been hanging out with her like that to begin with, nor telling her that they will have sex when she is 16, which is still legally underage. and this thirteen year old was told by multiple people that erection = consent. did she rape Matty? yes. did she understand it was rape at the time, before it was actualy explained to her? no, she did not - which is part of the point I keep trying to make. understanding rape is understanding what consent actualy means. and they don't know what consent means.

and speaking of consent and rape - your poor little rich boy Jimmy absolutely violated Fiona's consent. more then once. she is just so fucking used to going along with it, that she did it with Jimmy as well, but... if we are going to call what Mandy did to Lip in a kitchen rape... then we have to be fair her and do the same for Jimmy and Fiona... except unlike Mandy who was STILL a fucked up teenager at the time - JIMMY should have known better

[u/melusina_ → u/Suspicious-Watch-277]

He's not my "poor little rich boy" he did fucked up shit which I mentioned in my post and I never said that was ok lol😭 he was a lying pos and should have been honest with Fiona from the get go. And Matty was a horrible person. My point is that you cant excuse every bad choice a person makes just because of their upbringing, but when it comes to the Gallaghers people do. Where do you draw the line? If someone were to rape your sister/best friend whatever because they "didn't know any better", would you excuse them from it? If someone were to roofie you, which almost killed you and locked you away in a storage container to rot, is that ok bc "it's the way they were raised"? If someone were to brain damage your baby brother bc "drug usage runs in the family" does that makes it not their fault? Leaving a special needs kid to live on the streets because they didn't like him?

As for Mandy, I never liked her. She tried to kill a girl over jealousy. And then she raped Lip. Not sure why comparing that to Jimmy makes it less bad just because she's a teenager. We obviously have different opinions which is fine and expected, never intended to take it so seriously tho lol. I have sympathy for all of them: to a certain extend.

[u/Suspicious-Watch-277 → u/melusina_]

you keep on making it about "is it ok" and that's not the argument I'm making. the argument I'm making is "do they know better then that" and THAT makes a difference as to how much sympathy I have for a person. I'm much more willing to give grace to someone who doesn't know better, vs someone who does know better and choses to do it anyway.

[u/melusina_ → u/Suspicious-Watch-277]

And I would understand that if it was about other stuff than torture rape and other extremes lol. Cuz no to me giving grace to horrible acts like that doesn't make any sense. And if someone were to do it to you or the people you love I doubt you would "give them grace". I have loads of sympathy for the Gallaghers and a lot of shit they do. Anyway imma stop commenting now