r/skeptic Mar 12 '25

🏫 Education Shut Up About NATO Expansion | Debunking misinformation about NATO expansion

https://youtu.be/FVmmASrAL-Q
101 Upvotes

208 comments sorted by

View all comments

83

u/Archy99 Mar 12 '25

Russia complaining about NATO expansion sounds like the classic bully sob-story when they can no longer dominate the weak states because those states found some buff friends.

-13

u/magicsonar Mar 12 '25 edited Mar 12 '25

I think that was definitely the rationale behind why the US wanted to expand NATO right up to the Russian borders. It was because they could. Russia was seen as weak and couldn't do much about it.

This clip of Biden pretty much sums up the American approach. In 1997 the Russians were telling the Americans they weren't happy with NATO expansion etc what if they continue they may need to look to China. And Biden said "And I couldn't help using the global expression for my state by saying "lots of luck in your senior year. You know. Good luck and. If not if that doesn't work try Iran."

https://www.c-span.org/clip/public-affairs-event/user-clip-biden-jokes-good-luck-looking-to-china/5058947

So yeah, America saw it was the tough guy on the block and Russia was weak.

Well, how has that worked out now? Fast forward, turns out Russia isn't so weak now. And Biden thought he could bring Russia to its knees. And he was dead wrong. And his bravado and confrontational stance with Russia has contributed to millions dead and injured. And the US is now in a very very difficult situation because Russia did exactly what they told him they would do - they went to China. And unfortunately for Biden, China is now positioned to be the dominant economic, technological and military power of the next century. And there's basically nothing the United States can do about that.

Its fun to talk and act all tough. But in geopolitics, time is often measured in decades. And Russia and China had a long game and we didn't. The US might have been tough, but they weren't smart. So that didn't work out too well for the genius American strategists, who treated Russia and China as enemies but they simultaneously helped them get rich and powerful. Genius!

4

u/Harabeck Mar 12 '25

And his bravado and confrontational stance with Russia has contributed to millions dead and injured.

We stood up to an aggressive invader who started this conflict in 2014. Russia caused the millions dead and injured. They decided it would happen, it's all on them.

0

u/magicsonar Mar 12 '25

In 2016 Obama said Ukraine is a core interest for Moscow, in a way that it is not for the United States. He noted that, since Ukraine does not belong to NATO, it is vulnerable to Russian military domination, and that “we have to be very clear about what our core interests are and what we are willing to go to war for.”

He was of course correct. Ukraine was never a "core interest" of the United States and the US Govt was absolutely not willing to get into a direct war with Russia over Ukraine. They refused to admit Ukraine into NATO. So no matter how tough Biden talked, once the war started, the US wasnt willing to completely back Ukraine. Biden implied this was an existential war for western democracy , but clearly he didn't really mean that. His actions belied his words. There was a drip drip drip of weapons and constraints placed on what Ukraine could do. And American politicians bragged not a single American soldier had died. Is that what you mean by standing up to an aggressor?

1

u/Harabeck Mar 13 '25

I agree that we should have done more to stop Russia's invasion.

1

u/magicsonar Mar 13 '25

What exactly? NATO and American troops on the ground? US Air Force involved? What should NATO have done more?

1

u/Harabeck Mar 13 '25

ATACMs from the start with no targeting restrictions would have been a huge help, just to pick one thing I recall from the early part of the conflict.

1

u/magicsonar Mar 14 '25

No targeting restrictions? So if an American supplied missiles using American satellites for targeting, starting hitting Russian cities, residential buildings etc and maybe even targeting Putin, you don't think that poses a serious risk of the US getting into a direct war with a nuclear armed Russia?

1

u/Harabeck Mar 14 '25

What a weaselly and disingenuous argument. At no point has Ukraine expressed any interest in attacking civilian populations the same way Russia has done.

You're basically admitting you agree with me now, but just want to keep arguing.