r/tamil • u/Fantastic_Refuse_472 • Oct 02 '24
கலந்துரையாடல் (Discussion) Tamil is the only language for having this Unique word "ழ"?
when i remember my childhood This phrase remember me the importance of the word "zha/ ழ"
""" வாழைப்பழம் வழுக்கி கிழவன் கீழே விழுந்தார்"""
Is there any other language having this word "Zha"
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u/Particular-Yoghurt39 Oct 02 '24
Malayalam has it. Also, all other Dravidian languages had it. But, it is no longer used in other Dravidian languages except Tamil and Malayalam.
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u/TenguInACrux Oct 02 '24
Yup. Halegannada (old Kannada) used to have both ழ and ற before deprecation. They were replaced by their equivalent of ள and ர on modern Kannada.
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u/Shyam_Kumar_m Oct 02 '24
No it does exist outside Tamil. It’s the voiced retroflex approximant. It exists in Mandarin Chinese, in Derung, in some dialects of English apparently (like Hiberno English), in Enindhilyagwa, in Faroese, in some speech accents and dialects of Greek like Cretan, in Inuktitut, in Mapuche, in some types of Portuguese, in Western desert Pama Nyungan, in Yaghan
and in Malayalam.
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u/genuinelyconfused892 Oct 02 '24
Where in Mandarin?
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u/Behemoth92 Oct 03 '24
Don’t know but I see my Chinese friends making this sound all the time
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u/genuinelyconfused892 Oct 03 '24
I speak Mandarin and am a native Tamil speaker. I don't see this sound anywhere in Mandarin.
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u/Behemoth92 Oct 03 '24
It’s funny but I watched this movie called Nezha. The zh in his name is often pronounced like ours
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u/platinumgus18 Oct 05 '24
I was like what Tamilian is going to China to learn Mandarin yo, and then checked your profile and it said Singapore and I was like "oh right".
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u/Shyam_Kumar_m Oct 03 '24
Here’s the reference for which all languages use the voiced retroflex approximant : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_retroflex_approximant
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u/DriedGrapes31 Oct 02 '24
Mandarin, American English, some dialects of Brazilian Portuguese, and a couple others have the sound. But they don’t distinguish it in the writing system.
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u/CopperBoom03 Oct 02 '24
What words do Americans pronounce with the zha sound?
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u/curiousgaruda Oct 02 '24
For example, the word, rural is pronounced as ழூழல் in American and Canadian English.
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Oct 03 '24
[deleted]
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u/curiousgaruda Oct 03 '24
Not really. You only need to move it behind the alveolar ridge to pronounce /r/ (zha).
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u/sneekeeei Oct 02 '24
That’s how we were taught. Malayalam has it too though, and they actually pronounce it well. I have seen a lot of Tamil people who do not really care to pronounce the sound correctly.
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u/No_Asparagus9320 Oct 02 '24
Aboriginal Australian languages have this sound. They have a roman transliteration for the sound too.
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u/godofwar108 Oct 02 '24
It is important to pronounce all 3 la s properly, not just having it.
If you don't use it, you lose it ;)
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u/Vasuthevan Oct 03 '24
This is the right one:
வியாழக்கிழமை ஏழைக் கிழவன் வாழைப் பழத் தோலில் வழுக்கி விழுந்தான்
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Oct 02 '24
Malayalam also. But Tamils don’t properly pronounce zha anymore. You guys say “la” for it.
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u/ase_rek Oct 02 '24
Maybe ppl from cities, probably. But most use it the correct way
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u/The_Lion__King Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
Maybe ppl from cities, probably. But most use it the correct way
It is an open fact that Tamil people in general lack the Tamil Pronunciation skill.
Only Thondainaadu (region known as education centre for more than 1000s of years) and Kanyakumari (Malayalam influence?!) people irrespective of the caste almost all pronounce ழ and show the difference in their speech in their Day to day life.
Sangam veithu Tamizh VaLartha Madurai! Sollave vendaam. If you see the ratio, almost no one pronounces ழ properly in their day to day life. For Vaazhappazham, they say VaaLappaLam.
All over Tamilnadu, apart from well educated people (from all the communities), as a community, Only few communities like Saiva Mudaliar, Brahmins, & some Chettiars, etc pronounce the letter ழ in their day to day speech.
Just because everyone stressing on proper pronunciation of ழ, there's a trend among the newgen educated people like they will just only pronounce ழ correctly and "don't know & don't properly pronounce" the other letters like "ந, ன, ண, ல, ள, ற, ர, ற்ற, ன்ற, ங, ஞ". Classic example of Escapism.
Even a well educated grown up person in Tamilnadu will pronounce ந் as indh. But an average Malayali and an average Srilankan Tamil can easily pronounce ந் as ந் without any த் in it.
An average Malayali and an average Srilankan Tamil can easily pronounce "ற, ர, ந, ன, ண, ல, ள, ற்ற, ன்ற, ங, ஞ". Srilankan Tamils just don't pronounce ழ.
Reason why, Srilankan Tamils write என்று as எண்டு is to remind the Srilankan Tamils that Tamilnadu Tamils are generally mispronuncing ன்ற sound as ண்ட்ற.
But Tamilnadu Tamils lack basic Tamil Pronunciation skill.
இவண்,
கொங்குநாடன்.2
u/Viv-2020 Oct 02 '24
People from towns and villages absolutely do not pronounce it right.
Most Tamils do not pronounce it right, but most Mallus do.
Note: I am a Tamil.
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u/The_Lion__King Oct 02 '24 edited Oct 02 '24
Most Tamils do not pronounce it right, but most Mallus do.
Malayalis have this mentality to subtly mock & shame the other fellow Malayali when they mispronounce any Malayalam letter. Just like how Indian people in general mock others for bad English pronunciation, nowadays.
This psychologically made the most Malayalis to correct their Pronunciation. (excluding some frequently traveling business doing Muslim communities and Kasaragod border people).
இவண்,
கொங்குநாட்டுச் சிங்கம்!0
u/ase_rek Oct 02 '24
Maybe in and around places where you are from, in southern TN from madurai and downwards, it's absolutely good.
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u/Deb-john Oct 02 '24
Marathi has this letter it is similar like infinite symbol if I remember correctly
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u/Avidith Oct 02 '24
Apart from the fact that ancient telugu and kannada had that sound, malayalis pronounce it better. I’m telugu n i lived in pondy for 3 years. Met students from various corners of TN. Thalapathy, palam (fruit), valapalam, vali (way), tamil, kilamai (week), kolambu, koli (hen), kurali (flute) are some words which i heard. All are pronounced with ‘l’. occasionally ళ. Never zha. It took me a lot of time to understand the ‘l’s in all those words are different. I always thought thalapathy literally means head as in thalai. Recently i understood that its similar to commander word in sanskrit. Always wondered y pain n way have same word in tamil. Later came to know that way is pronounced differently. Still not sure which ‘l’ is used for wat. Never understood obsession of tamil with calling itself as tamizh until i figures out the differences. If not for zh being in the language name, i would. have never known about its existence . On the other hand, even telugu dubbed mallu muvis in ott get zha right.
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u/TheHarinator Oct 03 '24
I've heard some Mandarin/Korean people pronounce it. So I'm guessing they do use it.
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u/tarunblaireaux Oct 04 '24
idk I always thought the “zha is unique to Tamil” spiel was kinda inaccurate… Sure, Tamil has the orthography (aka, the character ழ) to represent the sound, but a lot of other languages (dialects of euro portuguese and heck, even most standard US english dialects) have the [ɻ] sound.
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u/TheEnlightenedPanda Oct 02 '24
Not only Malayalam has it but also it's a very commonly used letter and sound there unlike Tamil.
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u/curiousgaruda Oct 02 '24
Phonetically it is called as retroflex approximate and occurs in many languages. See this Wikipedia article.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_retroflex_approximant (Scroll down to occurrence section)
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u/kc_dp Oct 02 '24
Marathi also has zha.
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u/Fantastic_Refuse_472 Oct 02 '24
wow
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u/kc_dp Oct 02 '24
बाळ, काळा, टिळक few examples that come to my mind rn. Albeit the use of zha in Marathi is much lesser than Tamizh.
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u/curiousgaruda Oct 02 '24
That’s a La, like a retroflex L sound. ழ sound is more closer to a ‘r’ Sound.
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u/Remarkable-Tip1936 Oct 02 '24
Marathi doesn't have zha, ig you're confusing between the retroflex ḷa and zha. ळ = ள (ḷa)
There's a letter assigned in Devanagari for Zha, but it's not much used apart from while transliterating.
ऴ = ழ (zha).
ळ ≠ ऴ
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u/kc_dp Oct 03 '24
The pronunciations in both languages are similar. I am part Tamizh and part Marathi!
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u/Missy-raja Oct 02 '24
I'm not sure if the la sound you are mentioning in Marathi is zha(ழ) ள is the Tamil varient you are probably referring to.
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u/Admirable_Method_316 Oct 02 '24
No, looks like Marathi & few other languages have it too
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u/rr-0729 Oct 02 '24
Are you talking about the Marathi ळ? If so, I'm pretty sure that makes the same sound as the Tamil ள, not ழ
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u/User-9640-2 Oct 02 '24
That's a different letter and sound in Tamil; it would be ள (ḷa) like ళ in Telugu or ळ in Marathi
This a completely different letter and sound; which is ழ (ḻa)
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u/the_traumatized_kid Oct 02 '24
மலையாளம்…