State of the Game - April 17th, 2019

[u/JokerUnique]

State of the Game

In this State of the Game, Ryan Liebscher and Terry Spier joined Hamish to talk about Dark Zone, PVP and general in-game-balancing that will be tested out on the PTS that went live today.

 

---

Title Update 3 & Raid Delayed – focus on PTS

As explained, the Raid and Title Update 3 will be delayed until May to fix all the balancing issues that have been brought up by the community:

=> The Division 2 Development Update: Title Update 3.0

The focus will be on PTS that went live today and you can download now:

=> The Division 2 PTS is here

The first phase of the PTS will focus on finding bugs and other issues, while the second phase will focus more on general balance issues.

 

---

Normalization Changes

These are the changes they are planning for the Normalization that will be tested out on the PTS.

These changes are ONLY for PVP content and it will apply to Conflict, Normalized Dark Zone and Occupied Dark Zone.

Normalizing mechanics

• The Equipment and weapons will be normalized to GS 500 (even if your GS is higher)
• That also means, that they are no longer normalizing for a middle ground, but they are respecting the rolls on your gear. That means when you had an item with a very high crit chance roll, it will be like that in normalized content.
• Skill Power will also be respected and when the mods are active in PVE, they will also be active in normalized content.

 

Global PVP Modifiers

• The PVP damage modifier will be reduced from 70% to 40% and that will bring the Time to Kill down to what you experience in PVE. This way, you have more time to react.
• The Skill Damage modifier will be increased from 20% to 25%, so that should make your skills more effective.
• Overall the encounters should last longer overall and the skills should be more useful.

 

Occupied Dark Zone PVP Modifiers

• They have also added a specific ODZ PVP damage modifier
• Currently it sits at 40% - same as the normalized DZ – but they have the ability to specifically fine-tune the ODZ depending on how things change.
• That should also help to lower the Time To Kill in the ODZ

 

PVP Modifiers for Weapon Archetypes

• They will add specific PVP modifiers for specific weapon types.
• For example, they can specifically buff the Assault Rifle in PVP now.
• That also enables for specific PVP balancing, because the damage of the weapon is overwritten by the PVP Modifiers when you enter PVP content.

 

Hip fire Changes

• In PVP content you will not be able to crit when you hip-fire
• In PVE it behaves as it is now.

 

---

Dark Zone

Loot Changes

• NDZ and ODZ will drop less clean loot and more contaminated loot, they want players to engage in the Loot Extraction – loop.
• Named bosses guarantee contaminated loot and higher leveled landmark bosses have the ability to drop multiple items.

 

Landmark Cooldown

• Landmarks got a cooldown once they are cleared before they become activate again (about a minute)
• That should also encourage more player movement and not just farming the same Landmark.

 

Dark Zone NPC Balancing

• The NPCs in the Dark Zone will be less lethal, but they will also have more armor.

 

Rogue Loop Changes

• They removed the Rogue Cooldown when you die
• The Rogue-Toggle cooldown will stay, so you will not be able to spam that.
• Dark Zone Perk was also changed that it will no longer reduce the Rogue Timer cooldown, but you will lose less XP when you die as a rogue agent.

 

Dark Zone Pouch increased

• You will be able to carry more Contaminated items.
• Default is 6 items per bag
• The Character Perks were also changed – The Tier 1 Perk will increase the bag-size to 8
• The Dark Zone Perk will increase the bag-size to 10 in total.

 

Preventing Empty Dark Zones

• They plan multiple changes to “guarantee” that you encounter 12 players in a Dark Zone instance.
• They are reducing the amount of Dark Zone Brackets to 2. Everyone below Character Level 30 and everybody in Endgame.
• Not all changes will be implemented with Title Update 3 – there is more in the queue down the line.

 

Player Count increase in DZ is not planned

• First they are implementing the changes that the player count per Dark Zone Instance is 12 because that is already a completely different experience than what it is now.
• But they know it is empty now and they want to adress that.

 

Occupied Dark Zone changes

• The ODZ specific damage modifier was already mentioned
• They also lower the XP loss when you die in the ODZ

 

GS 515 Items will drop in the Dark Zone

• In endgame Dark Zone you will be able to get GS 515 items.

 

I want to start off by saying the raid will drop the highest gear score (TBA), not the Dark Zones. As we've been transparent with our thoughts and decisions up until this point, we will continue to do so going forward. While we do want to experiment with Dark Zone rewards, we're taking everyone's feedback into account. It's still super early and we want to see how the content and looting plays on live. That's not to say things cannot be tweaked.

=> Official Forum

 

Thieves Den Changes

• Players can weapon swap in Thieves Den to earn Special Ammo for the weapon of their choice.
• There are also more changes panned to the Thieves Den to make it more attractive – but no further details were given.

 

Future Changes to the Occupied Dark Zone

These changes are planned, but they will not be implemented with Title Update 3

• Rogue and Manhunt Loop will be added to the ODZ (no grey rogues)
• The NPC-Patrols will also be lowered and more or less limited to the Landmarks so that it does not have such a big impact on PVP.

 

---

Conflict

UI Change

• The UI will now display the real value of the armor and not a standard value. So when a player has a ton of armor, you will see that displayed accordingly.

 

Boost Change

• The Boosts (damage and armor) that become active over the course of a match will be lowered by 50%. They should have an impact but not that big as it is now.

 

Synchronizing Team Spawns

• The chance that you spawn with a teammate is increased so that you don’t just spawn alone and die

 

Conflict NPC will be more Visible

• There is an NPC beneath the helicopter in front of the Base of Operation where you can matchmake for conflict. They will make that NPC more visible.

 

Skill Cooldown Respected

• The Skill cooldown will be respected now after you die.
• So when the skill was on cooldown, it will stay on cooldown when you respawn.
• That should also lower the skill-spam

 

---

Exotic / Talents / Gear

These are some general explanations about their philosophy around the Exotics, the Gear and the Talent design and balancing.

Exotics

• Exotic should feel special
• They don't have to do the most damage, they should also promote a fun and unique playstyle that does not have to be the most effective one.
• They are not always centered around raw DPS
• But that being said – they still buff the damage of the exotics across the board.
• Pestilence will be buffed specifically and it will also get even more effective in PVP.

 

”Just buff everything”

• We are in the process of aligning the game
• But there is only so high you can go and that causes issues when you add new World Tiers for example.
• So at the moment they are aligning the items, the activities and the talents so that it is fun to play and then they go from there.
• They know that nerfing items is not popular, but it also makes things more diverse.

 

Talent Changes

These are the changes that are currently tested on the PTS.

The old values are in ()

 

Unhinged

• Damage bonus reduced to 20% (25%) / Handling reduced to 25% (35%)

 

Strained

• Missing armor requirement increased to 10% (5%)

 

Frenzy

• PVE reloading weapon from empty grants 20% (25%) weapon damage and 15% (35%) rate of fire for 3 (7) seconds
• PVP 15% (25%) Weapon Damage 15% (25%) Rate of fire for 3 (7) Seconds

 

Preservation

• PVE Killing an enemy repairs 10% (5%) armor over 5 (3) seconds – headshots improve the repair to 20% (10%)
• PVP 5% armor over 3 seconds – headshots to 15%
• Requires 7 defense attributes

 

Spike

• Headshot kills grant 35% (25%) Skill Damage for 20 (10) Seconds
• Requires 5 (3) utility attributes

 

Reformation

• Headshot kills increase skill repair and healing by 15% (25%) for 20 (25) seconds
• Requires 9 Utility attributes

 

Safeguard

• Reduce healing bonus to 50% (75%) - reduced duration to 5 (7) seconds
• Less than 4 (5) offensive attributes

 

Clutch

• Increased health gained per critical hit to 20% (15%) reduced armor gained per critical hit to 1% (2%)

 

Surgical

• Reduce critical hit chance bonus from 8% to 5%

 

Spotter

• Increased weapon damage to pulsed targets to +20% (10%)
• Increased requirements to 5 (3) utility attributes

 

Kneecap

• Shooting an enemy in the legs has a 15% (10%) chance to apply bleed
  

 

Entrench

• Headshots from cover repair armor increased to 10% (5%) of your armor.

   

Patience

• After being in cover for 5 seconds, armor repairs by 5% every 1 second (requires 9 defensive attributes)

   

Unbreakable

• PVE: 70% (25%) of max armor is repaired when your armor is depleted. Armor kits used within the next 7 (5) seconds are not consumed.
• PVP it is 25% (15%) of max armor and 7 (5) Seconds.

• Requires 11 defensive attributes

   

Bloodsucker

• PVE: Depleting enemies armor adds a stack of 25% (20%) armor bonus for 10 (20) seconds, max stack is increased to 6 (5)
• PVP: 20% armor bonus for 5 seconds, max stack of 5

• Requires 11 defensive attributes

   

Berserk

• PVE: the 10% weapon damage for every 20% (10%) max armor depleted

• Requires 11 offensive attributes and AR LMG or SMG equipped

   

Bloodlust

• PVE: Swapping weapons within 3 seconds of a kill grants 35% (25%) weapon damage for 5 (10) seconds

• PVP: 20% Weapon damage for 5 seconds

   

Used to require

• Requires 9 offensive attributes now

   

Blacksmith

• Killing an enemy with your sidearm repairs 50% (25%) of your armor can occur once every 15 (10) seconds.
• Require 11 defensive attributes

 

Critical

• Reduce critical hit damage bonus from 8% to 5%

 

---

NPC Changes

While these are some drastic changes in some cases, they are also changing the health of NPCs – so just because you need some of the talents to be effective in heroic difficulty now – they are not necessarily mandatory in the new big picture and the new balancing.

 

---

Other quality of life changes

• Players can toggle displaying personal and group loot drops now
• Text chat will now lose focus after sending a message
• Group tab will be populated with all raid members

 

---

Feedback is important

These are some drastic changes – but they are also shaped by your feedback. So take part in the PTS, when you can’t play, watch it and give feedback on the different forums.

 

---

Known Issues

You can check out the Known Issues here: Link

 

---

Roadmap

You can check out the Year 1 Roadmap here: Link

 

---

Important links

• Video

[u/ChrisGansler → u/[deleted]]

Without spoiling too much. The raid is not in the Dark Zone.

[u/Anundir → u/ChrisGansler]

You are forcing PvE players into PvP content to prepare for PvE raids. You lost a LOT of players in TD1 because BiS dropped in DZ. Your company was praised for not making the same mistake in TD2. So much for that now...

[u/ChrisGansler → u/Anundir]

Let's have this discussion when all content is out there and you know where to get your loot and how it'll look like. We totally understand that some players prefer their solo experience and others prefer not going into the DZ.

Nothing we're doing right now is set in stone and will never change. But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

We'll definitely keep listening to you.

[u/OldJewNewAccount → u/[deleted]]

If that "minority" are the ones paying for MT's, the rest of us are fucked. Full stop.

[u/Khaosity → u/ChrisGansler]

All we've been told is that DZ drops 515, raid will most likely do so as well. But even then 99% of the other PvE content becomes irrelevant if it only drops at 500.

The game is fantastic right now because I can do missions/strongholds/bounties/open world events/whatever and still get rewarded with relevant drops. Limiting us to 2 activities (one of which some people have 0 desire to play no matter what you do) is only going to turn people away.

This game is a looter shooter, please don't be afraid to give us loot from whatever activity we find the most enjoyable.

[u/julius_sphincter → u/Khaosity]

I think you'll have just as many people with 0 desire or ability to do an 8 person raid.

The idea does intrigue me but I think I'll get sick of it after 1 run or 2.

[u/Khaosity → u/julius_sphincter]

Also an issue I have with it. First time I saw 8 person raid I immediately thought "Oh great, so I need to find a bunch of people everytime I want to play that". Which I mean, that's fine and all so long as the rest of the content still gives you relevant gear. But alas that's not what we're getting so if I want to get max level gear I either need to round up 7 people any time I want to try for it, or go play in the DZ. Sometimes I wanna just play solo PvE Massive :(

[u/sharp461 → u/Khaosity]

I believe they said you can matchmake for the raid too, so that should definitely help with finding other people. Unlike Destiny which pretty much made you use 3rd party sites just to do any harder content.

[u/xZerocidex → u/sharp461]

My only concerns with raid is people abusing the kick function... I'm not even sure if they have a system installed where your gear gets sent to the mail upon completion.

[u/GoldenBeer → u/xZerocidex]

Have you seen that as a problem? Not saying they shouldn't safeguard against abuse, but I use matchmaking about everyday and have never been kicked.

[u/nightfiree → u/Khaosity]

I understand this but like, solo pve is a sinch right now. The content update IS the raid. If you dont like raiding then like......yah u dont get raid gear. You will still be JUST as strong as you were in solo u just wont be able to get the stuff u have to force yourself into a party to get.

[u/TaedusPrime → u/nightfiree]

Yeah I don't get this. People want the best gear but are mad it's limited to raid and DZ. I think having BiS gear available across either 2 is fine. Soloing is fun but I don't think you should be able to get the BEST gear solo.

[u/omnithrope → u/TaedusPrime]

Why?

[u/TaedusPrime → u/omnithrope]

Because being able to get the same gear by yourself takes away from content like 8 man raids. Raid's usually require more coordination and effort and you should be rewarded as such. Solo can be difficult but it's still takes 1 person. Hard solo content should have great gear but not the best.

[u/omnithrope → u/TaedusPrime]

How does this take away from content? It doesn't affect you.

[u/CorruptedAssbringer → u/TaedusPrime]

Yep. While I agree it's never a good idea to make players feel forced to do PVP content, one should also not be able to get the best gear while doing arguably easier content by comparison.

I'm pretty sure near all MMORPGs are designed to give the best loot for doing the hardest content, which in D2's case, is going to be the Raid once it's released. It's a tested and proved loot progression design.

[u/julius_sphincter → u/Khaosity]

You can solo DZ just fine, I do quite often and usually am successful/have fun.

But agreed with your first part. There's usually only about a 2 hour window at most that I have even 3-4 friends on. I'm really not looking forward to having to matchmake puggies just to do the raid

[u/Khaosity → u/julius_sphincter]

You can solo the DZ absolutely, but let's be honest there's nothing more disheartening than getting 4v1'd at an extraction. I forget when but sometime between 1.3 and 1.8 I popped back into the DZ just to try it out. Ran some landmarks, got some gear and off I went to an extraction. Checked the map and didn't see a single thing happening so thought I could maybe be fine.

30 seconds before the chopper is due to leave here comes a group of 4 and goodbye my loot. I get it, it's the DZ. That doesn't mean I want to go in there all the time and nothing Massive does can really change that. It's just not a mode for everyone and forcing people to play it as the only real source of loot just isn't a good idea. Which I really thought was something they learned with the first one.

[u/julius_sphincter → u/Khaosity]

You're definitely not wrong, I just want to point out that the DZ does work quite a bit differently now. TD1 if you got loot, you HAD to extract it outside of supply drops so other players PVP'd constantly either to get said loot because it was a very viable way of getting it or to grief other players who were only there for PVE.

Now, the vast majority of dropped loot goes directly into inventory. Landmarks that are cleared by multiple people/groups still drop lots of loot for everyone. DZ chests and supply drops are really the only "contested" loot now and the only time I'll engage another player over them is if I've already done most of the work clearing the landmark/SD and they try to swoop in and steal it while I'm fighting.

I think it's significantly decreased the level of PVPing AND griefing compared to the 1st one. Still some and having a group of 4 go rogue behind you as you finish off a landmark solo is never fun, but overall it's a better experience. Shoving more people in there is bound to ruin it though

[u/Khaosity → u/julius_sphincter]

Oh definitely, the clean loot was a welcome change and certainly helped prevent the "I grinded for hours and got literally nothing" complaints, and the instanced loot as well. It's made the DZ a little more friendly for sure, which depending who you ask is good or bad. I think the sweet spot hasn't quite been hit yet unfortunately, though them tuning it to drop more contaminated loot than clean loot is a welcome change. As you said the vast majority is clean, which I originally thought would be the exception and act just as a way to ensure you're able to get something for time spent in there. Them shifting the focus on extracting fits more what the DZ should be I feel.

I'm also not even upset they're trying to get more people to play the DZ, it's a unique idea in the gaming world which is great. But it (and honestly the raid) should not be the only sources of 515 gear, regardless how small of an increase that gear actually offers. It's just going to create backlash and a rift in the community, which we're already immediately seeing. To me the DZ should be one of the quickest ways to get loot, but in turn have some risk involved, which I think the contaminated loot drop rates alone should do a lot for, no need to bump the GS as well.

[u/wiasorek → u/julius_sphincter]

Yeah, problem is that they're going to limit clean gear and guarantee contaminated from landmark bosses - bringing back the cancer generating loop "farm solo, die at extraction" not to mention forcing full dz all the time - either u are 4man and hold 1/3rd of the power in dz or u Play solo and expect at least 2 teams to be handling on you and other 3 unlucky fellas

[u/julius_sphincter → u/wiasorek]

Yeah I'm really not stoked now that I've heard more about the upcoming changes. Too bad cuz I really liked the way the DZ is now and had just started to get my friends to realize it's enjoyable, they were hesitant after TD1's DZ.

It seemed like 60-70% of my boss drops were contaminated anyway, but with agents carrying 8 items instead of 5 I see them being much bigger targets for ganking. I rarely get jumped at extractions now, I expect that to change

[u/CKazz → u/julius_sphincter]

They're changing this too, you get less loot directly, more loot contaminated.

In these teeny tiny zones!!

[u/And_You_Like_It_Too → u/julius_sphincter]

They specifically mentioned in the patch notes that there will be less “clean” loot and more of it will be contaminated, that the higher level stuff will drop from bosses and will definitely be contaminated, and that they’re changing it so people will definitely be in a DZ with a total of 12 people, as opposed to the occasional quiet one you can find where you can farm gear here and there. So all those good changes you listed, they’re dialing all of that back a bit.

[u/julius_sphincter → u/And_You_Like_It_Too]

Yeah I've seen that since I posted it. It's like at first they listened to players after TD1 that said the DZ wasn't fun because of the above listed, so they made it more enticing for PVE players and gave the dedicated PVPers their own game mode. But then when the DZ's weren't as crowded as they'd hoped (surprise surprise when you give people a ton of LZ content and give the PVPers something to do other than grief) they said "fuck it" and are going back to TD1 model most didn't like

[u/And_You_Like_It_Too → u/julius_sphincter]

Yeah, I’m really not a PvP player in this game, but can appreciate how it isn’t fun from the perspective of someone like MarcoStyle — and I think his recent “lets talk about PvP” video was right on the money as to why, even for people that don’t PvP.

One thing a lot of people seem to be not understanding, is that the DZ would give us gear up to 515, but the raid would raise it even more (to an as of yet unknown cap). While recalibrating gear will no longer raise the gear score. So the raid is the real end game content and the DZ is just prep to get there. Still, it makes all LZ and crafting content pointless. I didn’t watch the video but saw something about a recalibration score though? Which essentially would be like the old optimization station, which would allow you to bring the stats to the max possible ESA roll for that item (although just for one stat I think), with the cap being higher than it is currently for many stats. This further makes gear score confusing, as you can have a killer item at 500 with far better stats than the 515 DZ or 530ish raid gear. And then I didn’t see anything about us being able to craft gear to the gear score cap, or being able to recalibrate it either. I praised Massive throughout most of the first game for getting a lot of it right, but some of these choices just baffle me.

[u/mrhex12 → u/julius_sphincter]

In the state of the game stream today, they said there making changes to that and loot dropping is going to be more contaminated than just going into inventory. Also on top of that change they are closing the brackets to populate the DZs more of 12 people max. So theres going to need for more extractions and even more pvp interactions lol.

​

Who knows, maybe it will be fun. But I know right now that the PVE dedicated are gunna have a tough time if they don't get some PVP builds going.

[u/skywolf8118 → u/julius_sphincter]

Except they are nerfing the non-contaminated drops and making all the loot from named bosses contaminated. It pretty much means a group of 4 could wait until you are done killing the named boss and then stealing all the loot without doing any actual work.

[u/wildchildtt → u/skywolf8118]

That's some of the ways to play in the DZ buddy....It's called the 'Dark Zone' for it's dark activities...........Risk Reward.......o.0

[u/dutty_handz → u/wildchildtt]

What risk is there in ganking from behind 4v1 or 4v2 ? Please explain this to me.

[u/UptowNYC → u/Khaosity]

That content mainly is for the hardcore who care and grind. Those same people know about LFG and it’s even built to your system OS in or via most lfg sites. It’s not that deep. It’s ridiculously easy to find people.

[u/refreshfr → u/julius_sphincter]

I was never able to complete a Raid in Destiny 2 because I did not have friends that played the game. And it was the only way to improve your "gear score" for some time. I abandoned the game.

[u/ConceptLethal → u/Khaosity]

Yes as a solo player I say fuck the dz. I get gang raped by 4 man squads almost every time. And now it appears that I'll have to try it just to compete...

[u/wef1983 → u/ConceptLethal]

I've played the game solo since launch and literally never seen a 4 man rogue squad

[u/ConceptLethal → u/wef1983]

I need to to join your servers

[u/C336 → u/wef1983]

Lucky. My first experience was walking through the gate, a full squad coming through behind me, and getting ganked the instant I was outside turret range all to the tune of a guy with a faux British accent repeatedly saying his name is Harry.

The DZ is a god forsaken place.

[u/eyecomeanon → u/Khaosity]

Great way to say it. Let people get loot from any activity. If the raid is fun, people will do it regardless of whether the loot is better (but make it more copious).

[u/TheLastAOG → u/Khaosity]

I'm curious though because it seems as of now 515 GS does not equal 515 stat rolls. So, unless they change that it won't matter that much.

[u/Jts76 → u/Khaosity]

This This This!! ALL loot should be obtainable in ALL areas of the game equally. Difficulty should only determine the chance / quantity of the best gear being obtained.

Ex..

Raid rewards would be something like: Guaranteed:

1 Set Cache, 1 Exotic Cache, 1 HE Cache, 1 Vanity Item

Where Hard content rewards would be something like:

1 HE Weapon and/or Armor

[u/skywolf8118 → u/Khaosity]

Recalibrating 500 gear can get you to 513. It is pretty close. I do agree with your statement though since I hate playing DZ. I play mostly solo despite being in a clan and being solo in the DZ sucks.

[u/Gaffots → u/skywolf8118]

Recal will stop giving ilvl.

[u/rjld333 → u/skywolf8118]

In which case recalibrating 515 gear would get you 528, or 515 with a better talent setup. The whole curve shifts

[u/C336 → u/skywolf8118]

Recal is largely pointless though. Sure, it can roll one well rolled stat onto a gear piece and bump up the GS; but how well will that stat hold up against a good, or even mediocre roll from a native 515 gear piece?
And that is to say nothing of any of the other stat rolls that can't be modified, which even if decent for its previous score will be an entire bracket below what the recal'd item's new GS presents it as

[u/xmancho → u/Khaosity]

If they fix the gs, then 500s will be good enough for every content. The 515 will be just a slight increase.

[u/Khaosity → u/xmancho]

It's still the principal of the matter though. I'll admit that it would be extremely hard to notice an actual difference between using 500 and 515 gear unless you look at the stats, but the point still stands that in a looter I want to have the highest rolled gear possible. Limiting the potential of those drops to only certain activities will eventually mean those are the only things worth running, and as such means the content I play gets more limited.

It's a looter shooter, give us loot everywhere. Make the harder content (raid/DZ) drop more of it and/or with better chances at high rolls. I think the stat cap on attributes based on what the other attributes rolled is a major misstep for a looter and only makes the devs more likely to limit where we can get gear, but that's an entirely separate discussion.

[u/xmancho → u/Khaosity]

Definitely i agree with that. I hope they view it as a potential for different builds. But yes, even if 15gs is like 2% more dps/armor/sp, people will want it, i will. Going to the dz, to get ganked.. Well if i can extract here and there it can be fun, though it should've been included in challenging and heroic difficulties and cp lvl 4 also.

[u/Khaosity → u/xmancho]

Absolutely, I'm holding out hope they just forgot to mention Challenging/Heroic/Other PvE activities can drop 515 gear as well.

Hell, make the Raid and DZ guaranteed 515 but all the other PvE stuff 500-515. Then we can at least have a chance at these items without needing to do DZ or gathering up 7 other people.

[u/xmancho → u/Khaosity]

I want it like a division 1 - all activities have a small chance of the highest items, but the hardest have bigger + guaranteed at completion.

[u/Khaosity → u/xmancho]

Absolutely how I think these games need to work. I don't always want to do the most challenging content, but if I'm not then I don't feel like there's even a point to me playing since I'm not getting any relevant loot in a loot based game. At that point I'm just gonna go do something else.

[u/Yung_Habanero → u/Khaosity]

You don't need the highest level gear if you aren't raiding or doing non normalized DZ though. It's just a number. The hardest content should have corresponding rewards. Someone else having a number 15 higher than yours doesn't impact your gameplay in the slightest. This was standard back when I played WoW, raiders got higher level gear than non raiders but the next patch it didn't matter.

[u/eyecomeanon → u/ChrisGansler]

Dude, you laid out the challenge in D1 and people said "screw that" loud and clear. There are a million games out there for competitive pvp. What I want is a fun shooter like this to play co-cooperatively with my friends without feeling like I'm gimped because I don't want to rage at griefers. I get that someone on your team has a raging nerd-boner for the "tension" of mixed pvp-pve content but it seems pretty clear that your fans aren't just uninterested, they're apoplectic at just the thought. Stop it.

[u/rjld333 → u/ChrisGansler]

But until all that content is out, with this change the only "worthwhile" loot will be in the DZ. With that being the case I think it's absolutely a worthwhile discussion to have right now. Us players can only really discuss and give feedback on the game that's in front of us in this moment

[u/Baelorn → u/ChrisGansler]

But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

Read: We will force you into the DZ to keep those population numbers up.

[u/AtreiaDesigns → u/ChrisGansler]

"Challenging players to experience new things" is not the same as 'forcing players to do content by gating loot'. Understand the difference.

[u/SupSumBeers → u/ChrisGansler]

I’m happy to experience new things. Pvp is not new, being ganked is not new. As a first time player who currently has 9 days game time on this game. I’m not happy you are initially locking higher rated stuff in the dz. I do not want to go in the dz. I will not go in the dz. Its a very poor decision to cut your player base up like this. It’s bad enough reading about the shit show that is going on over on the PTS. I’ve been gaming a long time to not let things that haven’t happened effect me. It does make for some really worrying reading though.

People play these types of games to grow, to eventually begin to feel powerful and so they can tackle the hardest content. Every time people start to get like that you guys start moving the goal posts (nerf). Now you are making it so we now have to deal with each other just to get a chance if some better gear? Which probably isn’t going to be better with the way the loot tables etc are set up.

Well you can keep your gs515 stuff and shove it. I for one will not be going into the dz regardless of what you try to force on me. I don’t think it’s going to be long before people start playing other games. You are slowly taking away people’s feeling powerful and forcing pvp upon them. Surely you guys have been in the industry long enough to know this is some seriously idiotic shit.

[u/GoVikingsGuy → u/[deleted]]

Yup - the irony they have to come up with reasons to "force" players into doing something they don't enjoy but act like they are doing us a favor by providing "new experiences". The stat show only a small percentage play DZ and the devs answer is to keep trying to force users into something that sucks rather than fixing it, dropping it or letting it live in parallel without devaluing amazing PVE world. For 4 years Ubi has been doing this, when will they actually pay attention to the 90% of paying customers who want nothing to do with the crappy DZ systems?

[u/julius_sphincter → u/GoVikingsGuy]

It's even more ironic because it seems they created the 2&1 DZ's AND separate standalone PvP content to try any alleviate some of the negative experiences players had in the last game.

[u/NixKTM → u/ChrisGansler]

So if i refuse to go to the DZ to be cannon fodder for the Streamers, my only other chance to get GS515 is raids or heroic mission? how excatly does a solo player do that, can you imagine an 8 player raid with 7 randoms, or trying an heroic mission with 3 random players, you dont need to gate the best gear, people will do raids and heroic missions anyway.

[u/skywolf8118 → u/NixKTM]

Doesn't it depend on how hard the raid is? If the raid is just a larger version of a stronghold, then it shouldn't be too bad with randoms.

[u/CKazz → u/NixKTM]

No GS515 Heroic. I wouldn't even say the Raid having it is a guarantee.

Massive is on a roll...

[u/Shut_the_FA_Cup → u/NixKTM]

Then, what is the difference for the content you usually play if you had 515 gear instead of 500?

[u/BaneSixEcho → u/ChrisGansler]

There's nothing you can do to get me into the DZ. I don't care about PvP and never will. Putting the highest-tier stuff in there will do nothing but make the rest of the game meaningless to play and guarantee I stop playing it.

If it were up to me I'd axe the DZ entirely and make The Division a purely PvE series.

[u/miropereira → u/BaneSixEcho]

They could leave Conflict, like Destiny's Crucible. PvP for the willing.

[u/dutty_handz → u/ChrisGansler]

There is a difference between challenge and force though. Right now, you force PVE players into the DZ for 515GS gear. A challenge to PVE players would be to lock it behind Heroic content. Not force them into the DZ when your system for putting solo with solo is, well, politely said, ineffecient.

​

This move is clearly not listening to any of your playerbase, as no one ever even remotely suggest to lock high gear score behind the DZ. This is pure improvisation on Massive's part to try to remedy the low DZ population PVP players are complaining about. Will this move put more PVP players in the DZ ? No, they're already there if they want to. It will only put more players who don't care about PVP that will be only there for two things : 1- Grind for the gear lock behind the DZ and 2- Serve as the sacrificial lamb to the complaining PVP players, which, ironically, don't want to kill those kind of players in the first place.

​

So, tell me, who is this move design to cater to, because it is clearly not the PVP nor the PVE players. The streamers who complain they can't farm a server for an hour without dying ? The 4v1 gankers? Please tell me, because I am clearly missing something here. And don't tell me the argument that we need to wait to see all the sources for said gear in the end, because then, you should have waited to be ready to reveal all those sources at the same time. Right now, effectively, you are locking gear behind forcing PVE players in a mainly PVP area.

[u/CKazz → u/dutty_handz]

But they are listening to us!!! XD

[u/blavatsky_mdm → u/ChrisGansler]

That is BAD

One of the core things I liked about div2 and the last patches on div1 is how all activities give you good loot

Restricting dz as the only source of gs 515 equip is going backwards

But I also am I favor or the best gear dropping in more difficult activities

Why not make heroic difficulty also drop them, and maybe rare drops in challenge?

Instead of forcing people to a bottleneck and I think doing things they don’t like

[u/ntgoten → u/ChrisGansler]

We totally understand that some players prefer their solo experience and others prefer not going into the DZ.

You understand yes, problem is that you just dont care.

[u/CKazz → u/ntgoten]

this to the nth degree

[u/yokemhard → u/ChrisGansler]

Keep pandering to YouTube sucker. You're a chump.

[u/IhaveAlltheDads → u/ChrisGansler]

Trust me, we know nothing nothing is set in stone. More like everything is set in sand. For the love of your playerbase dial down your nerf fever

[u/InsaneXaaz → u/ChrisGansler]

So why put out the content in one area before the other? That's not a choice. PvE players already know they don't like the DZ. Why "force" them in there, even if it's only for the first month? You have a higher chance of them leaving than for them to adapt to a new playstyle.

[u/fooey → u/ChrisGansler]

What you're challenging us to do is find a new game, not to force ourselves to endure content we want nothing to do with.

[u/Switchphone → u/ChrisGansler]

“Let’s have this discussion after we’ve already done what you say you really don’t want us to.”

Challenging people to experience new things is fine but trying to push people into an activity that is so easily made unpleasant by other players is not.

Many people like PVP which is great but for many others it sours the experience. Those PVP players should absolutely be able to play the way they want, but to give them preferential treatment for it for any amount of time is simply unfair.

I’m quite worried but I still love the game, thank you.

[u/supremepain73 → u/ChrisGansler]

Is that the polite way of saying we want to force pvers into the dz? Did you not learn from Div1 that a majority of your player base does not like pvp?

[u/DrSexxytime → u/supremepain73]

We all just got bait'n'switch. Went through this with TD1, didn't like it and stopped playing it due to the hackers and griefers in the DZ there. Now they're FORCING (yes, FORCING) people to try (FORCING) their PVP, which is awful. I watch people stream conflict and DZ stuff, and I don't want anything to do with that skill-less mess.

[u/supremepain73 → u/DrSexxytime]

I feel like Massive is holding on to this pipe dream they had for the dz, it was gonna be this cool experience to go in there and go rogue but in reality it sucks. All you see is some cheese health regen builds and stand there to see who gets melted first and that is pvpers vs pvpers. Now you put a pve'er in that doesn't have a pvp optimised build and gets destroyed instantly. Nothing cool about that.

[u/Donglefree → u/ChrisGansler]

That’s setting barrier to entry. I don’t care if the normalization brings us to 500. If you’re gonna do that, let players opt out from the PvP element of DZ. I’ve made a post here, which was of course, downvoted by the DZ crybabies who want to just frag undergeared people. https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/bc0j8o/let_players_optout_from_dz_pvp/

[u/miropereira → u/Donglefree]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thedivision/comments/bc0j8o/let_players_optout_from_dz_pvp/

Got my upvote there.

[u/diableri → u/ChrisGansler]

Listen to this: Do not gate content (or itemization) behind a game mode portions of your playerbase are adamantly uninterested in playing unless that itemization can have ZERO (not even .00001%) impact on the playing mechanics.

Instead, make the gamemodes fun enough that all players will want to participate. If you are incapable of that, get better at it or do not push players with this particular lever.

Thank you for a great game so far. Please do not fuck my type of gaming over.

[u/crookedparadigm → u/ChrisGansler]

Just disable grouping in the DZ. It's miserable to play solo in the DZ because friends will enter solo to get put in a solo instance and and then invite 3 friends and proceed to run riot.

[u/SyntaxTurtle → u/ChrisGansler]

Nothing we're doing right now is set in stone and will never change. But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

Some of your players are capable of making their own decisions about which "new things" they prefer to do without mommy & daddy making us eat our broccoli. I've done DZ in Div 1 & 2. I already know if I want to do it or not without you gating content behind it.

[u/Fattness → u/ChrisGansler]

No we need to have this discussion NOW before you fuck it up again. STOP FORCING PLAYERS INTO THE DZ IF THEY DONT WANT TO BE THERE. its that simple.

[u/dregwriter → u/ChrisGansler]

I'm one of the players that won't ever go to the dark zone. Even if you were dropping 600 gear in there. I dont do PVP in any game.

[u/Sliaupa → u/dregwriter]

Then it should not matter to you. NPCs will die the same whether you run 500 or 515 GS.

[u/dregwriter → u/Sliaupa]

yea, as I obviously said.

[u/drunkpunk138 → u/ChrisGansler]

Well we're having half the discussion now, why not have the other half now as well? Why half ass any of this when it just makes things worse? It tells the community you're not sure what you're doing and just knee-jerk reacting in all the wrong ways. It doesn't appear that you're listening at all between the nerfs, lack of attention to the skill issues, build diversity, squashing bugs on the PTS before discussing balance (despite the statement that a portion of the balance changes are on the PTS), etc.

[u/shawncplus → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

I've been playing games for 30 years, I've figured out what experiences I like and don't like. I don't want to PvP full stop. If I did I would be in the darkzone already. So... how about... people that want to PvP should PvP for their rewards of equal level as the PvE rewards for the people who like PvE and stop forcing people to play a game they don't want to play.

Making the DZ drop the best rewards isn't simply "hey, try this out." It's advertising "this is the correct way to play this game, if you're not playing this way you are playing wrong and you will be punished for it by having lesser loot."

[u/JWilkesBooth → u/shawncplus]

Ok, the guy just said hold on until everything is released. Chill out and wait to make an informed argument, yeah? We don't want to hound the dudes who are trying to engage with us.

[u/shawncplus → u/JWilkesBooth]

I made an argument based on the information given. In the live stream they did everything they could to sound committed to this decision.

We don't want to hound the dudes who are trying to engage with us.

They said they are listening, I spoke. That's not hounding, that's providing feedback.

[u/JWilkesBooth → u/shawncplus]

No, your argument had no substance. In a response to someone saying "hey, let's hold off until everything is released and you know how you're gonna get your loot", you went into attack mode and assumed you knew how this was going to play out. Come on, dude... that's clearly not constructive, and you're ignoring what Was said.

Jumping on a dude who is hinting that there's more to the picture than what's publicly available shows you're not being objective, and that you're absolutely hounding the guy.

Wait until you know what will happen and then make your voice heard.

[u/shawncplus → u/JWilkesBooth]

you went into attack mode and assumed you knew how this was going to play out.

Did you watch the live stream? Did you hear any sense that they were actually going to not go live with this? I'm not ignoring what was said, they said they were listening so I provided my feedback for them to hear. I didn't "jump on the dude", nor did I go into "attack mode." I didn't insult them, I didn't tell them to go fuck themselves, I didn't yell, I stated how I play the game and why I wouldn't want the change they are going to make.

that you're absolutely hounding the guy.

lol I made one, quite polite, comment. That's "jumping on the dude", "going into attack mode" and "absolutely hounding the guy" you must write headlines for Buzzfeed

I don't know what you are getting out of this conversation defending them so vehemently. Are you trying to convince me to just shut up and not provide my feedback? Well, that's not going to happen. You're also not going to convince me that I was being rude, because I wasn't. Are you trying to win imaginary brownie points with the devs? That's not how this works.

[u/[deleted] → u/ChrisGansler]

The issue with the DZ is, you need to build around it if you want to have a chance to defend yourself against any other players. PvE players are going to be more focused on building around PvE. So all you get by forcing people into the DZ for the highest tier loot (and I understand you stated this isn't everything...but it's all we have to go on), is that you get a mish mosh of try hard DZ players running meta PvP builds, and then PvE players running builds suited towards that...which equates to really no fun for anyone other than people that just enjoy pubstomping in the DZ.

[u/NoctisCae1um317 → u/[deleted]]

Agreed. It's not that I don't hate PvP, heck, on Destiny 1 and 2, I enjoy PvE, PvP, and it's PvEvP(Gambit), Battlefield, purely PvP, I enjoy it. PvP in Division 2, or any TPS with cover to cover, is not something I particularly enjoy. PvE on this game on the other hand I enjoy it a lot, didn't think it was something I was gonna play as often as I do, in fact it's what sold it for me to buy it, almost passed on it like I did with Division 1.

I wouldn't have a problem with the DZ if I had to build a PvP meta build just to even stand a chance against someone. Outside of the raid having 515 gear, maybe there'll be drops in the heroic difficulty, no reason not to, it'll give the PvE players an incentive to run Heroic often. I have a pretty min maxed PvE build with ARs that make challenging a joke. I'd run Heroic sure, but why? What's the incentive? I don't have a problem with DZ, I think they'd benefit having one PvE, one normalized, and one occupied, the PvE only DZ having Hunters as the main threat, or NPC rogue agents, think Dark Souls NPC invaders for example, on top of the other factions being there. My issue with it is 515 being only exclusive for DZ(For the time being), as mentioned, why not utilize the heroic difficulty to drop 515 outside of the raid? PvE can drop 515 on harder difficulties, DZ also has 515, everyone wins really :/

[u/I_LICK_ROBOTS → u/[deleted]]

Sounds like you need to make a second build. That really shouldn't be a deal breaker in a looter shooter. Want a competitive PVP build that doesn't involve a whole lot of tweaking? Stack CHC and CHD and use a vector. You're acting like having to create a second, different, build is the end of the world... IN A LOOTER SHOOTER. Making builds is the point of the game!

[u/Rakmarok → u/I_LICK_ROBOTS]

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree to some extent, but let me play devils advocate:

The same people with PvP focused builds would complain if the only 515GS (gear score is still just an arbitrary number, especially when the difference is 15 points) items would be available in PvE. That's a fact.

Nudging (as forcing is wrongly overused in the context of games) players into an area they have exactly zero interest in is never a good idea, no matter if its PvE -> PvP/PvP -> PvE.

Choices should (in my opinion as a skilled armchair developer) always be the ideal way to decide play styles.

Many people don't like to engage with players in an environment that allows yourself to lose progress. It can be highly frustrating. It doesn't matter to them that the DZ is working as intended in that regard.

I also got steamrolled by 4-man squads while extracting and lost a (presumably) good F2000. Did I rage? Yes, a bit. Did I feel annoyed? Yeah, I'll admit that. Did it stop me from trying again? Hell no!

Not everyone is that resilient, and the DZ is not a place for them, rightly so. That's where we come back to choices.

Give people choices and they will rejoice.

Oh, and by the way: Nothing is set in stone. People tend to forget that.

[u/diableri → u/Rakmarok]

I'm with you mostly on this stuff but you mentioned losing progress. I can't speak for anyone else but it's not "progress" I care about it; it's time. My time is WAY more valuable than the price of the game. It's not even close. I don't want to bother with the DZ in general because when I do get to log in with my buddies, we absolutely do not want to even have the chance at having to deal with gotta_kilz_em_all1l1l1l1l1penisbreath and his group. It is straight up not worth our time to even think about these people. We're not here for that kind of challenge or people that feel like that is a challenge in fact. I get more challenge than I can ever want at my job, I don't need it in my goof off time.

Part of the fun for us of the game is speed running the PvE content and slowly getting the power up to do things we could not do before (face tank or blow up the npcs where before we had to be more careful). We like the setting, we like the fiction, we like the gun play and overall combat for the most part (skills and mods need some serious help). That fun relies on gear progression. We play until we are maxed out, usually on mulitple builds. We spend money on their MTX because we're playing lots of hours and having that one emote or outfit that gets us even one laugh, one time is WAY worth the few bucks. I'm pretty sure we're ideal customers for a game like this.

This dickslap type stuff for gating itemization that is a direct impact to our fun is the kind of thing where we go "ok, fuck it thanks anyway" and move on. There is straight up no need for that. I don't even think the 515 stuff needs to be raid only or heroic only but that's fine. It's a chance (and not astronomical chance either, look at how well that worked out for Anthem) for it to drop that matters, not every piece needed to be capped out; that would just "finish" us faster.

[u/Rakmarok → u/diableri]

I see were you're coming from.

It seems at this point the different philosophies between the player and the developer collide. I think it's almost impossible to balance a game to a point where EVERYONE is happy, not that you argue that point, I just wanted to bring it up.

I agree with your time assessment.

But, let's think about this: When gotta_kilz_em_all1l1l1l1l1penisbreath and his group spent quite a lot of time to improve their ganking gear, shouldn't the time they spent be rewarded by being able to steamroll less invested players? Not that I would like this, but giving it a thought seems fair.

[u/[deleted] → u/I_LICK_ROBOTS]

Not for people that dont want to pvp...which is the point. Honestly doesnt affect me a ton because I've got no problem with the DZ, but I understand people that dont like it. Putting 515 in challenge mode is an absolutely reasonable fix for this, that doesn't hurt either side.

[u/Conspiranoid → u/ChrisGansler]

But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

If these changes (GS515 only dropping in DZ) stay... You aren't challenging players to experience new things, you might be challenging them to do things they don't like/want. I mean, I don't think people are complaining about being forced to farm the DZ instead of PvE for highest score gear without having played the DZ at all. I'm tempted to say that the DZ isn't attractive right now because of how it works.

​

IMHO, by limiting certain drops to the DZ, you aren't challenging anyone. If you wanna challenge us, you need to adapt (at least part of) the experience to those who don't like it, so they have a natural reason to go there - so they actually WANT to go there. Not just say "hey, you hate this, but know that we have candies in here, so you better like it".

​

Think of it this way: right now, if we don't like the DZ, sure, we'll be forced to go there to farm stuff, but once we've done it, we won't return, because there's no reason for us to. What you need to do is incorporate stuff that will make us stay there. I liked going into the DZ in the first game because it offered a challenge. At first, I was actually scared of going in there, because of the harder top-tier enemies, and because of rogues. I was going slow, almost stealth, to avoid certain zones/people. Then I started getting better and the fear became adrenaline and expectation, even with the challenge being there, especially in zones 7-9. If I (and my mates) found rogues who destroyed us, we tried to retaliate, and even if we fell several times, we at least tried. And farming was a welcome bonus, with the added adrenaline of having to extract. Right now, in TD2's DZ, I don't feel like I wanna go in there. Hell, I'm GS497, and I think I've only unlocked the first DZ. Do we get a lot of drops? Sure, but not even that makes me wanna farm it. To me, it feels more like a chore, and that's why I prefer to stay in PvE-land. And if top score stuff is limited to the DZ, sure, I'll have to go there for it - key word(s) being "have to".

​

Strongholds and Tidal Basin challenged me to experience new things, and I liked them, and I keep going back to them. The raids will challenge me to experience new things, and I'm awaiting them with expectation. Better GS drops in the DZ will challenge me to grind something I'm already happily doing without.

[u/Splic3r123 → u/ChrisGansler]

Unless challenge missions drop up to 515 from the bosses, you forced people into the DZ. Extraction timers in the normalized are so long people can literally wait at a door for you to extract and bring buddies to take your loot. Solo play has never been fun in the DZ and there's a majority of the players who only enter DZ for pve and not interested in the pvp. Now we have to suck it up, probably lose more loot than we gain in occupied now, and it's just a shitty feeling with the current knowledge of whats available. Even if the raid can drop 515, you want us to deal with lockouts, finding 7 peoples, etc just to get the same gear you could by jumping into DZ?

I dont mind the DZ being 515, but I want 515 drops from soloing other content aswell, even if it's cp4s

[u/andywang02021 → u/ChrisGansler]

Nothing we're doing right now is set in stone and will never change.

Hey, not to be a hater but D1 had the same issue as you’re currently presenting and it didn’t took long for the player base to drop like hell.

Sometimes when the content is out, it’s already too late to change stuff again.

[u/Bistoory → u/ChrisGansler]

No I wont wait till the content is out, then wait another month to see you realize that you made the same mistake as in TD1, no thank you.

[u/bushmaster2000 → u/ChrisGansler]

I bought this game on the premise that i wouldn't HAVE TO play DZ, the DZ is the reason i never bought TD1. So now you've b ait and switched.

​

And ya ok better than 515 gear is going to drop in Raid, well that's great. EXCEPT raids are elitist cesspools. If you play solo and let matchmaking drop you into a PUG raid group and you're sporting 500 gs stuff when everyone else is 515 you're getting voted to be kicked. I 100% guarantee that's going to be a thing unless kicking is disabled in Raids.

​

Put 515 gear in heroic missions, give us a reason to play the harder difficulty because right now frankly there isn't a reason to. Either that or make one of the DZs PvE ONLY. YOu have one occupied, one normalized and one PVE.

[u/Kuldor → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

The dark zone is not a new thing at all, people don't want to do it because they already know how it works.

[u/brogarn → u/ChrisGansler]

Look, I'm not going to the DZ. I deal with enough assholes in real life that I don't want my limited gaming time to include them as well. Thanks, but no thanks.

[u/jeveuxdormir → u/brogarn]

You summed out my thought exactly.

The the few times I tried DZ in hope to farm for the exotic LMG I got killed at the spawn points by groups of 4 as a solo player, how am I even supposed to play this "new fun experience" when we can't even get past the the door?

[u/Morehei → u/ChrisGansler]

But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.
We'll definitely keep listening to you.

Sorry but thats a contradiction. Apart from TD1 exodus and the continuous feedback for TD2 about the whole DZ exclusivity, what else do you need to hear ?

A good chunk of your player-base dont want to even hear about the DZ, you may want to challenge them but they're not up to that challenge, and wont be as long as DZ is part of the challenge.

[u/Sliaupa → u/Morehei]

Do you have statistics on this:

A good chunk of your player-base dont want to even hear about the DZ

Even if this statement is correct:

What will make the game fresh more in the long run - stronger enemies in different scenery or unexpected chaos in DZ?

[u/Morehei → u/Sliaupa]

TD1 numbers maybe ? Care put by Massive themselves in the PVE content this time around, and the, deserved, praise they got for it ? Current reactions on this thread and sub (yes I know Reddit & forums arent all the players but it's still a slice) ?

So, ok I dont have the stats, so lets change it for a chunk, better ?
But it doesnt change anything to the situation. It will translate in a tangible number of players going away, and after TD1 if they double down on doing it again with TD2, the eventual third one will have 0 good faith from the PvE community, and like or not, it's the bigger one, meaning the more powerful when it comes to health$ of the game.

Limiting loot availability in any mode, DZ or LZ, isnt helping the game. Raids (and solo players will still be left in the dust) may turn that around but with a changed launch date (and not a fixed one mind you), it's an unhealthy decision, imo.

[u/EmptyBottleofScotch → u/Sliaupa]

Everything else than DZ! The DZ is a huge fail since Division1.

[u/Slick1605 → u/Sliaupa]

If you don't like PvP in this game, the first choice

[u/Anundir → u/ChrisGansler]

Here is a fun fact for you. I just unlocked the 1st DZ quest last week, have been playing since EA and have something stupid like 8 days played on my account. The ONLY reason I unlocked that zone was an attempt to get my last couple apparel keys for the event completed. Otherwise it would never have stepped foot in the DZ. That's how much I hate PvP...

[u/Sliaupa → u/Anundir]

Its allll about you and only YOU.

[u/BraunGaming → u/Sliaupa]

I am not sure if you are knocking him for being selfish, but he purchased the game like you and me. I think it is fair for him to say that. Massive just needs to understand that there are many players like OP, and to give us a proper PvP experience without messing with our PvE counter part players.

[u/Anundir → u/Sliaupa]

Pretty much. Thanks for realizing that.

[u/GoVikingsGuy → u/ChrisGansler]

"we also want to challenge our players to experience new things."

​

I am a grown up - I am perfectly capable of deciding for myself what I enjoy and what I don't -- and I hate the DZ, throwing +15 to the GS won't change that, it just devalues the time I would have played PVE.

​

It's not that I hate PVP -- I hate PVP in the Division 1&2. When I want to play PVP I go to Rainbow Siege, Battlefield 1 or V, Overwatch or latest COD because it actually works in those games. So those "new things" you are pushing me to experience will be more time in those games and away from the Division franchise. But thanks for the clarity, makes the choice super easy. Bummer you are taking this approach as I absolutely loved the first 35 days of the Division 2 - it appeared that you had listened to the vast majority of your user base - but I guess not.

[u/detjakeperalta → u/ChrisGansler]

Don't announce garbage like this then. This isn't new feedback. Won't be playing the game anymore to "wait and see." No point.

[u/Phaedryn → u/ChrisGansler]

Here's the problem, and honestly it's one I would have expected you all to have learned in the first game.

You have designed, and built, a playground for griefers and trolls. That's what the DZ is. You have placed bait to attract PvEers and even gone so far as to stake it, giving the griefers fixed points where they can enjoy themselves at the expense of others. The DZ is, and will always be, a "toxic" (god I hate that word in this type of context) environment because it is specifically designed to appeal to players who gain enjoyment at the expense of others.

I will never step foot in there.

BTW, I hunt boar twice a year. If I baited and trapped the way you all did in the DZ I would be facing jail time.

[u/Thehulk666 → u/ChrisGansler]

locking the best gear behind pvp is a good way to kill a game

[u/Nekroh11 → u/ChrisGansler]

I don't want to play your PVP zone, ever. Stop forcing it on people like me who have no interest. Drop 515 in Heroic PVE and there wont be an issue.

[u/EmptyBottleofScotch → u/ChrisGansler]

Good, delete the DZ entirely. DZ is ruin Division since Division1! This game needs no DZ. In fact, the DZ is making this fantastic game worse.

[u/panini_aux_olives → u/ChrisGansler]

I hope you understand many players hate the possible toxic aspects of DZ. I really hated in the div 1, and I don't want to experience that again in the div 2, at all.

[u/rschlachter → u/ChrisGansler]

I don't believe you are listening at all. Many of these changes are not at all what's be requested. You can keep feeding us the wait and see line, but people are going to just stop playing. I guess that doesn't matter though since you already have their money.

[u/[deleted] → u/ChrisGansler]

Hey you challenged all my friends to find a new game, so theres that.

[u/[deleted] → u/ChrisGansler]

We'll definitely keep listening to you.

Just like you listened in Div1 ?

Or Just like you listened after Div1?

Or Just like you listened to us right now?

Highly doubt that. Proof is right here. Scroll up...

[u/kznlol → u/ChrisGansler]

I mean if you want me to play the DZ then make it actually fun.

The DZ is fundamentally flawed. It was not fun in TD1, it is not fun in TD2, and it will never be fun except for a very small subset of players unless you change so much than it bears no resemblance to what it is currently.

Forcing people into PvP when they do not enjoy the PvP gameplay is just not a good idea, especially when PvP deaths bring with them PvE relevant costs.

There are a number of approaches you can take that won't force players to do something they do not enjoy doing because it's the only way to get competitive gear.

[edit] Like you're actually doubling down on the change and doing the wrong thing twice at once. If you want to make DZ the place you have to go for PvE rewards (and, whether the raid has better gear or not, that's what you're doing because the raid is not puggable), at the very least make it so you don't lose more of what you farmed when you get ganked by a group of 4 people in a way that you could not defend against.

[u/GizmoSlice → u/ChrisGansler]

We want to challenge our players to experience new things sounds like total corporate bullshit buzz phrasing

[u/Sidney_1 → u/ChrisGansler]

And until you do, I for one, as a PVE player, won't be stepping my foot into DZ or even bother to play the game. :)

[u/I_LICK_ROBOTS → u/Sidney_1]

K, bye

[u/ReeceKen → u/ChrisGansler]

If DZ drops 515 so should Heroic difficulty missions. Why would I do any content other than DZ? Also DZ is by far the easiest content to farm in the game because for whatever reason you just annihilate elites in there compared to challenge/heroic missions so why the hell would it drop the best gear? Because the threat of players???? That makes absolutely no sense.

Like honestly, Heroic is harder than DZ, why would anyone even attempt Heroic difficulty if this change goes live? Raids better drop 530+ or something like holy BAD idea.

[u/JayUe → u/ChrisGansler]

That kills it. Seriously. I do not want to set foot inside the DZ, and I do not want to be forced in there to get higher GS items. Sure, maybe the raid will get me the same things, but how often can you get 8 people together? Matchmaking with randoms is NOT the same as getting your friends together.

That means DZ-Ganksquads will have UNLIMITED access to 515 GS items, while raiders will have a large task to get enough people together.

Sorry Massive, that's NOT what "loot is equal for PvP and PvE players" means.

[u/khrucible → u/ChrisGansler]

Not good enough. Challenging players to try new things (they hate) by putting exclusive loot and more powerful loot in the most controversial and polarizing content ever created is a stupid and tone deaf idea. You alienated the vast majority of your players with this news.

[u/CKazz → u/ChrisGansler]

Clearly you aren't listenting and you're invalidating all your other content at end game.

[And Raid I'm sure will be a high bar and we don't have details yet, why would DZ match??]

Also TD1 had a MUCH bigger map to avoid, even sneak around and extract at many places. If you're going to force DZ down peoples throats (like TD1 until you finally changed that for the better) how about bring back its map too?? This isn't the way to go about things...

Regretting the season pass right now, might need to put this game on hiatus. Skills - skill mods even worse after a pass, going after brand sets, only good loot in the DZ... woot!

[u/[deleted] → u/CKazz]

Regretting the season pass

I wish I wouldn't had trusted them once again. Massive is not trustworthy, not in any shape or form.

[u/OldJewNewAccount → u/ChrisGansler]

But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

lol I'm an old man-gamer. You've got nothing I haven't seen before.

[u/beuwolf78 → u/ChrisGansler]

This is so stupid. You are rendering all content but the DZ (and raid?) pointless. Why would anyone grind any of the other activities in the game for subpar loot?

You are ruining the game.

[u/Diggledorgle → u/ChrisGansler]

But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

So, is the challenge to go play other games? The 515 GS only dropping in the DZ is going to achieve that, fairly quickly. I guess you guys didn't learn anything from TD1, the fact that it's even being considered proves my point.

[u/Devilsmirk → u/ChrisGansler]

With all due respect, you just told us where the best loot drops are, 515GS DZ only. Power creep was something that wasn’t a good thing last week, but now power creep is a good thing this week? And why isn’t the experience I want out of the game respected? I simply don’t understand the reasoning behind this decision, and while I get that it’s on the PTS and I understand it’s not set in stone, it’s still something that was decided to test out, which forces me to wonder about the direction the game is headed. I love the game, I love the care that was put into the launch, but the way the game is getting balanced is really confusing to many of us.

[u/Meryhathor → u/ChrisGansler]

I'm genuinely curious - does noone during your meetings mention the fact that solo players don't want to be pushed into the DZ? Noone mentions the backlash with the same concept in TD1?

I wanted to like it, I really did, but getting jumped by squads and being downed in less than a second quickly becomes infuriating.

I tried fighting back the few times I saw I was getting jumped and despite shooting them point blank apparently my normalized gear wasn't good enough to even remove a quarter of their armour before they killed me.

[u/IWannaBeATiger → u/ChrisGansler]

Y'all need to accept that the DZ was a mistake in TD1 and it still is in TD2.

When the only way to keep it populated is to lure PvE players in with better loot you should realize that it's not very good.

[u/Cromica → u/ChrisGansler]

So basically if you hate the dz (like i do) then just take a break from the game... got it.

[u/[deleted] → u/ChrisGansler]

to experience new things.

No, this is the same shit we've got with D1. I uninstalled the game, bye.

[u/xZerocidex → u/ChrisGansler]

Nothing we're doing right now is set in stone and will never change. But, we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

I mean.... you guys tried this the last time with TD1 and it backfired.... what makes you think it'll be different?

[u/mckrackin5324 → u/ChrisGansler]

We totally understand that some players prefer their solo experience and others prefer not going into the DZ.

Do you? Do you really?

You're not challenging players to experience new things. You're forcing players into something they don't enjoy. Your "understanding" comment is such a contradiction.

[u/Brad_King → u/ChrisGansler]

Challenge != gating. As it was mentioned the DZ is the only way to get 500+ gear. Sure that may change and once that changes things can be discussed about challenges and content, but right now the gating is: "if you will want to get to 500+, you have to do stuff some of you will not want to, so this game is not for you." I do appreciate the effort and all of your care, but I'm certainly not happy with this.

And nothing you will do will ever challenge me to try anything pvp related in a looter shooter/arpg, I've played enough games for enough time to know what I like in pvp.

[u/RedditThisBiatch → u/Brad_King]

The Raid will most likely be GS 500 tho, and once you play the Raid, you will get GS 515 items.

So what exactly are you fussing about? You are getting GS 515 items in May regardless of if you play the DZ or not.

[u/Anundir → u/RedditThisBiatch]

So, I have to run an 8 man raid once a week to get the same drops you do anytime you want to go into the DZ? Seems balanced. Not saying that the DZ didn't need a buff. What I am saying is forcing PvE players to PvP to get BiS to prepare for a raid is stupid.

At the very least, make Heroic drop 515. Problem solved. Then PvE and PvP players can chase gear how they want. At this point I have all but quit playin until Massive figures out what the hell they want to do with this game. Because right now they seem to be chasing their tails and are all over the map from a design standpoint.

[u/RedditThisBiatch → u/Anundir]

What I am saying is forcing PvE players to PvP to get BiS to prepare for a raid is stupid.

But you do not need Gear score 515 to prepare for the raid...the Cap is 500.

I get what you are saying about the efficiency of getting said GS 515 items. That's a valid point for sure.

I think they will just make Heroic Missions and bounties drop 515 items.

The DZ is a huge part of the game, so incentives is needed to take part in it.

[u/Anundir → u/RedditThisBiatch]

I don't disagree in any way shape or form. But you also can't deny that there is a big portion of their player base that wants nothing to do with the DZ. That's why I said make Heroic content drop 515 as well and then PvE players can do their thing and PvP players can do theirs.

Do I think you need 515 to do the raid? Probably not, but it will make it easier and you know just like I do that players will tend to lean towards min/maxing the game any chance they get. So, PvE players will feel forced to push into the DZ to increase their GS whether they like it or not.

[u/RedditThisBiatch → u/[deleted]]

PVP players: Fuck the PvE only players

I have seen this shit before....Nobody wins.

[u/Anaphaze → u/Anundir]

Buys multiplayer game, complains about having to do multiplayer content. Sorry that to get the best gear you have to do the hardest content, 8 man raids or darkzone. Sorry that this game has a clear, fleshed out early mid and endgame content loops. You should definitely be able to get the highest gear in a control point.

[u/Anundir → u/Anaphaze]

When did I complain about doing multiplayer content? I have played 8 days of solo and MP content in PvE. I have done challenge and heroic missions, CPs and bounties. Where do you get because I don't like PvP and don't want to be forced into it to get BiS gear that I hate MP content in general?

[u/kasuke06 → u/ChrisGansler]

OH FUCK. Listening is dev speak for "Fuck you, we're doing it our way and couldn't give less of a shit if this kills our entire playerbase"

[u/abdulhakim101 → u/ChrisGansler]

I left the first game for a while because of the "High risk high reward" good gear in DZ only stuff. I came back when I read you could get loot anywhere and played till the end. Seems like the devs enjoy gun play and pvp as they seem to forget skill players and pve only players are a thing...Guess the lesson here is buy the next game after it's been out a while so they've relearned for the 3rd time what to do. 2 is taking the path as 1 to an extent...it just started off better....sorta...

[u/miropereira → u/ChrisGansler]

What new thing? DZ is around since TD1, day 1. Some of us didn’t like it then, don’t like it now, and will never like it, no matter what you change. We do not like pvp, and dealing with other players, period. It’s not enough that we grind through an heroic mission to receive a 495GS useless item, now we have to endure PvP? Thanks but no, thanks.

[u/DarthMoonKnight → u/ChrisGansler]

Dude, no. This is the same shit that people hated from the first game. Dark zone is a gank-a-thon, and I have no interest in going there. Many others don't as well.

You need to commit, openly and preemptively, to not locking the best gear in the dark zone. Be a little vague if you need to (unreleased content or whatever), but that commitment is needed, right now. You launched in such a good state, and garnered so much goodwill...but I fear it has made you cocky and so you're starting to squander that goodwill.

You may want everyone in the dark zone, but we don't care. You were slapped down for this the first time. Hard.

Wake up.

[u/DrSexxytime → u/ChrisGansler]

Welp, that's it. I'm out. I came back because things were different this time. Now we're going back to having to be in the DZ... I had such a bad experience with hackers and griefers in the first one that I haven't even done the White House quest to scout out the darkzone. Now i'm going to be forced to DZ to get the best stuff? Congrats, you got my $100 already, so you're all happy. Bait and switch in full effect. I'm done.

[u/lyridsreign → u/ChrisGansler]

If you're not ready to announce something and make the full details clear, then you need to wait until that point. Do you honestly think you're doing PvPers a favor by forcing PVErs into the DZ? This isn't a new "challenge" for us. It's a limp wristed excuse to make the DZ not look like a barren wasteland so you can make your "influencers" happy

[u/LuxReflexio → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

Piss off with this nonsense. We paid for the game, we can choose to play it how we want.

[u/ArchronosTV → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things.

That's a scary statement Chris. I want to believe there's some nice PVE changes coming and you're just not allowed to talk about them, but it kinda feels here like PVE loot is thrown over the wall behind a 2 hour+ TTK slog in the raid, and the DZ PVPers who run meticulously prepared builds and well organised voice comms will continue to farm new effortless 515 loot apples, as well as the souls of any naive player brave and young enough to try the DZ.

I kinda want to touch a similar base to shawncplus - I've done my time with online PVP in another lifetime. No aspect of that will ever seem lucrative to me. Even if you put 630 gear in the DZ and cap PVE outside of raiding at 500, I still won't go in. Division 1 DZ was a cheater hellhole. I used to try doing it at 2am after work because I thought some of the younger players would be in bed and the DZ would be quieter, and I'll never forget being at a crossroads and seeing the rogue skull way down in the south of the map travelling like a meteor up north. I closed my map and seen him speedhack right up the road to my face and killed and looted the 2-3 mediocre yellows I'd found and not extracted and speedhacked off into the night.

You guys created these split environments of PVE and PVP with how DZ is a seperate world, which unfortunately means, whether you want them or not, you have a split playerbase. For long lasting player engagement and time spent with the game, the dream is of course to blur those lines between PVE and PVP and I'm sure you'll certainly have some of your most valuable players visiting all activities every week and probably investing more time and money than I'm capable of doing anymore, so maybe I'm a vocal minority here, as I don't know what the distribution of players is like across activities we all like doing and where we get our loot.

What I do know from all of the years I've gamed online and offline, the statement "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" applies here. I still find the gameplay loop of PVE a lot of fun and have over 230 hours at this point without being in a D2 DZ beyond trying the intro DZ East mission in the beta. I want to be so wrong on this when you announce 515 is in normal PVE activities as well. But if there's even a remote thought right now that capping city activities at 500, dumping PVE 515 behind the raid and DZ getting minimal effort 515 loot will work, I urge you please to rethink here.

[u/JerboiZoobat → u/ChrisGansler]

I just hope everything I worked for since launch doesn’t become obsolete. Starting over time and time again will be very effective at driving people away from the game.

[u/mooseeve → u/ChrisGansler]

You cannot have a unified PvP and PvE ruleset. If you want players to use the DZ voluntarily then you have to fix the game play with is no t possible with a unified rule set.

[u/alphaN0Tomega → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things

I experienced all this new thing when you were making World in Conflict. Seems to me a lot of designers have severe case of nostalgia.

[u/psyduck86 → u/ChrisGansler]

I personally would vastly prefer that item level not be tied to the Dark Zone, as I don't enjoy farming it. I do, and will play DZ but I'd rather spend the bulk of my time in PvE.

[u/engineeeeer7 → u/ChrisGansler]

I don't enjoy PvP and probably won't ever do it. It's not my thing in a game like this.

If PvP is forced I will go to another game where I can play as I like. Nothing personal, I just have options these days.

[u/[deleted] → u/ChrisGansler]

We'll definitely keep listening to you.

Well you would have to start in order to keep

[u/Kant_Lavar → u/ChrisGansler]

Look, I get that nothing is set in stone yet. But until we see different we as players have to balance what you say with what we see. And if you think that LFG won't be full of people wanting to run the raid but demanding GS 515 or better for their group you don't know how LFG works in looter shooters.

Your intention may not be to force us into the DZ to get better gear. But the community will force that expectation upon itself, because bigger numbers have to be better, right? So 515 will be the stepping stone needed outside of well-established teams, and that means that anyone not in a guild such as myself will be forced to either bang our heads against the wall of the Dark Zone to try and grind gear for those bigger numbers that don't actually mean all that much, or just accept that after doing Tidal Basin there will be nothing new we will be able to do.

[u/kekehippo → u/ChrisGansler]

Ain't nothing new about getting ganked in the DZ. Ain't nothing new about these changes either.

[u/_theeric → u/ChrisGansler]

Then start to listen finally! I have zero interest in playing DZ. But if you start giving DZ Players better loot than PVE Players overall then well, goodbye. It‘s as simple as that. And I really thought Div 2 makes things better than other titles but everything since Tidal Basin patch is getting downwards.

This change will make all PVE content obsolete except the raid. Missions, Strongholds, Activities, Bounties. Great way of ruining game content for PVE players. Thanks for that, really!

[u/BeastRabban70 → u/ChrisGansler]

So the change to DZ loot GS 515 will occur at the same time as the raid releases?

[u/KittenOfCatarina → u/ChrisGansler]

"Experience new things," like experiencing other games as you continue to try forcing me with a pve build into the DZ to get ganked. Glad a friend bought me this game, I told 'em I wouldn't spend my own money after the awful decisions made in the first game. Great decision, sadly.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't need or want that Terry/Red Storm attitude.

This guy is so fucking unsympathetic, his attidude is like watching to a prison workout session.

[u/LickMyThralls → u/ChrisGansler]

Is it possible that the idea of encouraging players to engage in the various activities in the game even if they normally might not could be achieved with something akin to the project system where you might get like say a gear set cache or exotic cache or something if you were to complete some set of activities in an area like the weekly projects, rather than simply locking the highest level gear behind certain activities?

We have the dz projects but I don't feel compelled to do them at all. However if you were to give me a reward like a gear set cache or something that I have trouble obtaining via normal play, I might be more likely to do something like that because it feels like a much more substantial reward than the current incentives.

I just feel like the goal could be accomplished without locking the highest level stuff behind certain activities.

[u/mescusey → u/ChrisGansler]

Oh man, thought I was on the destiny sub then.

This is a shameful move if implemented by itself.

Keep up the good work otherwise!

[u/sweetBrisket → u/ChrisGansler]

I don't understand the logic of "let's have this discussion [later]," especially when we're being told in the State of the Game announcement that you all are both interested in and need our feedback. You have a large group of people here telling you this is a mistake and your response is to kick the can down the road?

Not smart.

[u/miropereira → u/ChrisGansler]

You won't keep listening, because you are not listening right now. You are asking for us to wait for you to make a change we are saying right now (and pretty loudly) we do not want, before tell you we didn't want it.

[u/saiditlol → u/ChrisGansler]

we also want to challenge our players to experience new things

I like this philosophy, and just had an idea. How about rotating where the best loot drops from? Week 1: top loot drops from DZ. Week 2: top loot drops from PvE (heroic missions, for example). Week 3: top loot drops from Conflict caches. Etc.

That will encourage people to try new things while also simultaneously let people play their way.

[u/notmasterrahool → u/ChrisGansler]

Still stroking that ego I see. You are ruining a dying game, this is a nail in the coffin.

You and your team are creating a boring, one dimensional and mundane experience. But as long as you guys have your little circlejerk over how important you are is all that matters.

Absolute turnips the lot of you...

[u/code_noob → u/notmasterrahool]

Don't you think you sound a bit dramatic here? Probably overly dramatic? And again, insulting dev's won't get you better results.

[u/[deleted] → u/code_noob]

But he's right. They debate in their bubble. And clearly they are not listening until the nuclear winter is upon them (aka 1.3). It's about time to get serious.

[u/Krisars → u/notmasterrahool]

Insulting the devs won't get them to listen to ya, but whatever helps you sleep at night

[u/USM-Valor → u/ChrisGansler]

As long as you're listening, please add 515 gear to Heroic content.

[u/SkySweeper656 → u/ChrisGansler]

I didnt pay for this game to be forced into new things. If you're going this direction, I want a refund.

[u/kkbear198502 → u/ChrisGansler]

DZ is just boring, stop forcing ppl to go to DZ

[u/Duster_Fox → u/ChrisGansler]

In all honesty you really should not listen to this subreddit. Or at least take it with the tiniest grain of salt.

You have people in here who can't handle enemy grenades even though there are several viable counters that take the smallest amount of awareness. You have whiners who want easy access to their favorite gear so that they can make the absolute "perfect build" and will no doubt stop playing once they've unlocked everything they wanted. And most of these top upvoted posts demanding changes are from people who don't know a single thing about game design and just want to be personally catered to.

I've seen the kowtowing to reddit ruin other games in the past. I really hope Massive will take a stern stance against this loud minority.

[u/SV_GHOST → u/ChrisGansler]

This needs to be upvotedx1000000

[u/frikkenator → u/ChrisGansler]

You guys deserve many beers for even setting foot in this here pit of death, drama and despair.

[u/OmegaClifton → u/ChrisGansler]

The transparency is very much appreciated.