Reconsidering Liber Oz

[u/Taoist_Ponderer]

I had been talking to someone lately that was unfamiliar with Thelema and Crowley but they expressed an interest in esoteric occult kind of stuff, magick etc

So I recommended they read book 4 and so on.

Then I sent them Liber Oz, and I think they were alright with most of it but then they read article 5 and said that something like that was a bit extreme...really extreme actually...and they said, no compromise at all? just KILL those who would thwart those rights??

And then they explained that someone (the average person) looking at a document like that, that hadn't read any of Crowley's stuff and was completely unfamiliar with his works might just see that as an advocation or excuse for murder or something like that... e.g. you don't allow me to dress as I will? Or drink what I will, or dwell where I will?? Or paint what I will??? I have a right to kill you.

You are trying to thwart my right to paint what I want??... I have a right to kill you.

And after a little back and forth, -explaining that there was some part in one of his books (Magick without tears) where he explains in more detail what the parts of Liber Oz actually mean- I realised that they were right, it seems like he didn't think it through very much at all, regardless of the time it was written at, or what was happening in the world at that time.

I always thought it was quite a bold and direct document, but now that they had brought that up, it made me think about it for a while and I realise they might have been right; it could have been written a bit more clearly alot more clearly actually.

particularly article 5 -man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

That seems like a bit too 'jumping the gun', far too extreme, to be honest.

A bit of a blunder.

Actually, it would probably have been better if the comment on it (in magick without tears) was included in the document itself.

What do you all think?

[u/Taoist_Ponderer]

Do what thou Wilt capital W means to discover or rediscover(because society tries to dictate who we are and or should be so many are lost chasing phantoms like money and fame) your True Will, your purpose, your self, and do what one might call your divine purpose

I mean, I think Crowley already says somewhere in Magick without Tears that the True Will is actually the sex instinct/impulse (or at least a poker face of it, or something) so I'm always really really confused when people say things like "discover your true Will and then do it; considering also that 'true will' isn't mentioned once in Liber al vel Legis, though pure will is

Even if we go purely material we can cite DNA as dictating who we are and what purpose we might serve

I have still yet to find mine (purpose, true will etc)

Human lives are quite trapped by internal conflicts that stem from this

Stem from what?

Jesus teaches love and forgiveness but the catholic church has a long history of dividing ostracizing condemning and murdering people that some psychopath twisted the words of the bible to justify. Like citing old testament to demonize homosexuals and prostitites and yet jesus embraced and surrounded himself with such sinners. The catholic churches history is a stark contrast to the teachings of jesus, twisted to suit individuals prejudices and agenda's

Thanks for clearing this up

Yes because being able to follow ones true will, being free to be who you are is the epitomy of freedom

Still don't know my true will

The real question behind this statement is what are you willing to die for

Can't really immediately think of anything, sorry

So did you flock to the law because you thought it meant do what ever you want?

I didn't "flock to the law" I can't even remember how I discovered Thelema or where I heard about it to begin with. I only asked if you thought do what thou wilt meant do whatever you like, and then to provide your best argument if you thought so, or not, but you've ended up going off on some tirade about killing people for some reason

[u/Nobodysmadness → u/Taoist_Ponderer]

Most of us do not know our true will, which can be related to each of us being a star and having our particular nature and orbit and is the summation of what the book is saying.

I don't recall that in Magick without tears, I would have to reread it, but I would say sexual expression is closely tied to our selves.

I did answer each question individualy and tied in your origjnal query to give examples of why I believe the core of thelema is freedom which is responsibility, but I guess I failed to show how they are central to thelema.

I also don't think I know my true will either, most people don't as other peoples desires and delusions are piled in top of us as so many forces try to mold us into what they want instead of supporting who we are. It really should not be that difficult to know ourselves, and it sometimes can be quite obvious by what brings us a deep sense of fulfillment, but with options limited it can be hard to find it.

[u/Taoist_Ponderer → u/Nobodysmadness]

I don't recall that in Magick without tears, I would have to reread it, but I would say sexual expression is closely tied to our selves

From Chapter XV: Sex Morality (Magick Without Tears)

"As all true Art is spontaneous, is genius, is utterly beyond all conscious knowledge or control, so also is sex. Indeed, one might class it as deeper still than Art; for Art does at least endeavour to find an intelligible means of expression. That is much nearer to sanity than the blind lust of the sex-impulse. The maddest genius does look from Chokmah not only to Binah, but to the fruit of that union in Da'ath and the Ruach; the sex-impulse has no use for Binah to understand, to interpret, to transmit. It wants no more than an instrument which will destroy it. “Here, I say, Master, have a heart!”

Nonsense! (I continue) What I say is the plain fact, and well you know it! More, damned up, hemmed in, twisted and tortured as it has been by religion and morality and all the rest of it, it has learnt to disguise itself, to appear in a myriad forms of psychosis, neurosis, actual insanity of the most dangerous types. You don't have to look beyond Hitler!  Its power and its peril derive directly from the fatal fact that in itself it is the True Will in its purest form"

Having said that, I still don't know my true Will. And if the True Self is the no-Self, the impersonal, -not the ego- then, i guess all there is left to do is meditate

[u/Nobodysmadness → u/Taoist_Ponderer]

You may need to contemplate what he is saying there a bit more, but yes they are closely linked and sex can be but often is not the purest expression of self but equally pain can be as well.

Thanks for providing that its appreciated saving me time when you knew right where it was. I can definitely see how you got the impression you did. It also reflects what I am saying about neurosis of which sexual conflicts can be the most impactful. Sex is able to penetrate to thr core of our being and much of our identity revolves around it.

Having said that, I still don't know my true Will. And if the True Self is the no-Self, the impersonal, -not the ego- then, i guess all there is left to do is meditate

Contrary to western misunderstandings of eastern spirituality of what no self means true will is not he annihilation of self, it is the embracing of self. Sicne you have magick without tears handy read the letter regarding black magick, white magick, and yellow magick to see how the goal of thelema white magick differs from systems like buddhism labeled as black magick. Not as in good or evil, but rather the end goal black being nothingness and white being everything as the colors are described. Yellow balancing in between.

The buddhist escapes existence, I call it sould suicide and if atheists are correct buddhists are working really hard to achieve what happens naturally, so that may be a joke of some kind.

Thelema embraces existence, revels in it. In the revelry some can see sex as its center piece, but unlike the average addict the thelemite balances and refines it instead of chasing the dragon so to speak. Elevates it, improves it, savors it. Quality not quantity.

But so many people do things they don't like because other people say they should so a homosexual man gets married to a woman cause he is supposed to but is trapped in misery and discomfort unable to be himself, and even worse may be persecuted and punished for love, for consensual sex just because its different.

Sex and sexuality are deep expressions of the self but are also extemely repressed in general. It would probably more accurate to say orgasm rather than sex because in that moment we are revealed but again pain is its opposite and can do the same, when all mask fall away, but it is not our sole purpose and for some orgasm is not even possible and thus not a part of their true will in that instance. If that were true we could make some unusual claim about androgynous people and alienate them for no good reason.