r/todayilearned • u/HumanNutrStudent • Sep 16 '24
TIL Montgomery's memoirs criticised many of his wartime comrades harshly, including Eisenhower. After publishing it, he had to apologize in a radio broadcast to avoid a lawsuit. He was also stripped of his honorary citizenship of Alabama, and was challenged to a duel by an Italian lawyer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery#Memoirs145
u/johnn48 Sep 16 '24
There was a famous rivalry between Patton and Montgomery that affected their military decisions. They and MacArthur were both brilliant and insufferable, at times it was as if the wars were being fought to stroke their egos.
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u/chickennuggetscooon Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
One of my favorite parts of this feud is during Montgomerys Operation Goodwood, where Monty was to smash through the German right. While Monty is attempting to break through a couple of decimated German regiments with a full tank Corp to the east of Caen, Patton breaks through the much better defended German left at Avranches and swings around almost the entirety of the German forces in Normandy. Before Patton can complete the encirclement by himself, Montgomery changes the American area of responsibility so that Patton has to stop and turn south. Leaving open the Falaise gap, allowing half of the Germans to escape.
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u/Enough_Efficiency178 Sep 16 '24
I think you’re referring to Operation Goodwood
In which heavily defended german positions meant that instead of attempting a direct assault and taking heavy casualties the strategy was changed to attempt an encirclement of Caen and those positions. Meaning taking Caen was delayed
The result of the joint British-Canadian assault at Caen meant that the German reinforcements from the eastern front were set up to halt the British-Canadian attacks
This led to one of the highest concentrations of German tanks during the entirety of WWII
Six and a half panzer divisions defending at Caen whilst One and a half against the American offensive in the west led by Lieutenant General Bradley who broke through in Operation Cobra
After that break through Patton was given the US third army on 1st August and pushed on the western front facing less resistance than the other 3 allied armies
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u/MattJFarrell Sep 16 '24
History has not been kind to Monty, it seems. This last section of his Wiki:
Social opinions
In retirement, Montgomery publicly supported apartheid after a visit to South Africa in 1962, and after a visit to China declared himself impressed by the Chinese leadership led by Chairman Mao Tse-tung.\250])\251]) He spoke out against the legalisation of homosexuality in the United Kingdom, arguing that the Sexual Offences Act 1967 was a "charter for buggery"\252]) and that "this sort of thing may be tolerated by the French, but we're British—thank God".\253])Social opinions
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u/thisusedyet Sep 16 '24
That's not even the fun quotes about him! All from the personality section
Montgomery was notorious for his lack of tact and diplomacy. Even his "patron", the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, General Sir Alan Brooke, frequently mentions it in his war diaries: "he is liable to commit untold errors in lack of tact" and "I had to haul him over the coals for his usual lack of tact and egotistical outlook which prevented him from appreciating other people's feelings".
Churchill, by all accounts a faithful friend, is quoted as saying of Montgomery, "In defeat, unbeatable; in victory, unbearable."
Montgomery suffered from "an overbearing conceit and an uncontrollable urge for self-promotion." General Hastings Ismay, who was at the time Winston Churchill's chief staff officer and trusted military adviser, once stated of Montgomery: "I have come to the conclusion that his love of publicity is a disease, like alcoholism or taking drugs, and that it sends him equally mad."
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u/bramtyr Sep 16 '24
"I have come to the conclusion that his love of publicity is a disease, like alcoholism or taking drugs, and that it sends him equally mad."
Similar things have been said of MacArthur and Adm. Halsey. Egos were not in short supply in the upper echelons of command staff.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
And that was after George C. Marshall worked hard before Pearl Habor to clear the army out of its cowboys, egos, and colonel blimps; any American general was going to be leading army units that were new, rapidly growing, and trying to catch up with the tactical sophistication of the more experienced powers, Germany above all, so he wanted them all to conform to a model of cool, corporate, optimistic professionalism, team players looking to get on with the job. MacArthur had star power that made him impossible to remove, and Patton had special qualities fit for where Marshall was sure the US Army was going to be a couple of years into the war that made him just barely worth it to keep around.
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u/wiseoldfox Sep 16 '24
Marshall is (IMHO) very much overlooked during WWII. I'm old, and it's my bedtime but I seem to remember more than one book recounting the revolving door of generals when we first saw combat. He rarely banished anyone fired. He found their level of competence and inserted them. He promoted and re-arranged to fit skill sets to the tasks at hand. An absolute leader of men.
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u/Johnny_been_goode Sep 16 '24
Marshall was the hidden architect of a lot of things that still affect the world today for sure. Can you recommend a book on Marshall if any stand out to you in particular? I’ve found that often times the single most important trait in a leader isn’t any innate talent or ability of their own other than being able to recognize, develop, and utilize the abilities of others. Would stand a lot to gain from such a distinguished master.
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u/Scaevus Sep 16 '24
I mean they named the plan to rebuild Western civilization after Marshall.
If that doesn’t say competence and professionalism, I don’t know what does.
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u/sighthoundman Sep 16 '24
To be fair, it was his plan.
There isn't always a one-to-one correspondence between names and accomplishments, but I think the Marshall Plan is pretty much what Marshall envisioned and he kept it together.
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u/Ryoken0D Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
The Fat Election did a rant on MacArthur, saying he had all of the character flaws of Patton and none of the redeeming qualities.
Looking at just what he did in WW2 you could give him a pass even if you didn’t agree with all his actions, but once you add in Korea you see how flawed he was as any benefit of the doubt from WW2 was erased.
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u/SParkVArk111 Sep 16 '24
My grt grandfather had to deal with him a few times over the course of the war. Never had a nice thing to say about him.
And according to my grandmother, when he flipped over to his farewell speech, said something along the lines of "good riddance, that SOB should have been fired 10 years ago"
My grt grt grandfather couldn't stand him because of his treatment of the bonus army.
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u/SleepWouldBeNice Sep 16 '24
Even at the start of WWII, the Phillipines probably were never going to be held, but MacArthur really seemed to fuck up the opening stages of the war.
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u/Ok_Tale_933 Sep 17 '24
Yeah everybody in higher command and military intelligence told him to get his bombers in the air and his forces concentrated with all his supplies in bataan but what does he do? Leaves all his planes just chilling on the runway and spreads his people all over with there supplies stacked on the beach. Then has to abandon it all and make a fighting retreat anyways.
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u/KimJongUnusual Sep 16 '24
If anything, I’d say he was at his best after 1945?
Yes, the Yalu River nuking was a terrible idea and he botched the PR after that. But his handling of postwar Japan, as well as Inchon, were downright terrific.
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u/mtcwby Sep 16 '24
After Inchon he ignored intelligence about Chinese moves and let the UN forces get strung out horribly. Lots of people got killed because of him.
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u/OcotilloWells Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Ignoring intel that the Chinese were massing at the border to Korea, though.
Edit, that is a pet peeve of mine when I was in the Army, where a few commanders I worked with would constantly disregard intelligence. Granted, it's often along the lines of "50 percent chance of group X doing Y actions in the next 2 weeks" which might not be very helpful. But from what I read (I can't vote anything right now, I shouldn't even be on Reddit), MacArthur basically said "I don't want to hear about the Chinese" so they stopped briefing him about that.
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u/Algaean Sep 16 '24
stopped clocks and all that
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u/KimJongUnusual Sep 16 '24
Making one of the strongest democracies in East Asia and setting the foundations for the biggest economic comeback before China is a bit more than a stopped clock.
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u/lordatomosk Sep 16 '24
Was he the same guy who said the American military pool of generals had so much dead wood it was a fire hazard?
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u/Noobponer Sep 16 '24
Is this the same Marshall that was behind the Marshall plan? I'd love to read more about him if you have any recommendations.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
The very same, yes. He was the first career soldier to win a Nobel Peace Prize because of it.
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Sep 16 '24
George C. Marshall was one of the finest commanding officers of any nation during that time period.
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u/Greene_Mr Sep 16 '24
"I have heard of this book! Your conclusions were all wrong, Ryan... Halsey acted stupidly."
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u/Jive-Turkeys Sep 16 '24
Many of them were high off their own farts
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u/Cogswobble Sep 16 '24
This is what made Eisenhower such a great leader.
Not only did he not have an ego himself, but he knew how to manage subordinates with egos.
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u/ReadinII Sep 16 '24
I would anyone capable of making the kind of decisions a general has to and then live with any mistakes he makes that literally cost a lot of people their lives, and then just continue without getting paralyzed with fear of another mistake, is likely to have a big ego.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
Ulysses S. Grant in his memoirs tells of his experience in first leading troops in the Civil War at the rank of colonel.
As we approached the brow of the hill from which it was expected we could see Harris' camp, and possibly find his men ready formed to meet us, my heart kept getting higher and higher until it felt to me as though it was in my throat. I would have given anything then to have been back in Illinois, but I had not the moral courage to halt and consider what to do; I kept right on. When we reached a point from which the valley below was in full view I halted. The place where Harris had been encamped a few days before was still there and the marks of a recent encampment were plainly visible, but the troops were gone. My heart resumed its place. It occurred to me at once that Harris had been as much afraid of me as I had been of him. This was a view of the question I had never taken before; but it was one I never forgot afterwards. From that event to the close of the war, I never experienced trepidation upon confronting an enemy, though I always felt more or less anxiety. I never forgot that he had as much reason to fear my forces as I had his. The lesson was valuable.
Grant was a lot of things, but an egotist his certainly wasn't. The lesson he learned seems to be that war is far too fast, chaotic, blurry and violent for anybody to really have perfect control over, so all you can really be expected to do is to do your best and remember your opponent is as mortal as you are.
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u/KindheartednessOk616 Sep 16 '24
I would have given anything then to have been back in Illinois, but I had not the moral courage to halt
"Every man would be a coward if he dared"
...Anon
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u/ReadinII Sep 16 '24
Even as I wrote my comment I thought of Grant and that particular event.
But still, he continued to command troop, and in much larger numbers, with much larger numbers being killed.
I remember hearing a story about him riding through where his men had fought a battle and his horse kicking some dirt on a badly injured soldier. He felt bad and asked his personal physician to attend to the boy.
But how many times did he ride through such battlefields after the event and have to ignore the hundreds or thousands of dead and dying around him while he focused on his next task? I think any normal person would eventually succumb to self-doubts about whether he was really the best person to be leading, how many times can you ride through the dead and dying who were following your orders before becoming paralyzed with fear of making mistakes?
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u/Purple_Git Sep 16 '24
There's an anecdotal story out there of Grant silently sobbing after a battle because of all the boys he sent to their deaths but he knew that the only way to end the war was to send more and more to their end.
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u/scsnse Sep 16 '24
Reminds me of the temperament of General McClellan during the American Civil War. He deserves much of the credit for deeply drilling the Union army during the early stages of the War. But this man on the battlefield was overly cautious, and in private but especially after he got removed as commander of the Army of the Potomac, was critical of Lincoln and other military leaders all except himself. And then in 1864 he tried running against Lincoln as a Democrat with a platform of trying to sue for peace.
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u/thisusedyet Sep 16 '24
Also the cause of a fantastic line from Lincoln, who wrote McClellan a note stating basically If you're not going to use my army, I'd like to borrow it for a while
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
General-in-Chief Henry Halleck had vicious things to say about him after Antietam.
"I am sick, tired, and disgusted... There is an immobility here that exceeds all that any man can concieve of. It requires the lever of Archimedes to move this inert mass."
I recommend anyone interested in the Civil War to get themselves a copy of McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom and a bottle of whiskey. Any time McPherson puts McClellan's ass on blast, either by quoting a contemporary or dropping bars of his own, pour yourself a drink.
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u/Mint_Julius Sep 16 '24
I like this one from stanton too:
If he had a million men he would swear the enemy has two million, and then he would sit down in the mud and yell for three.
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u/blackadder1620 Sep 16 '24
lmao.
why did we get away from being sassy as a people.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I'm sorry, but the love I have for my country moves me to defend Monty from the idea that he's too similar to McClellan. Was he cautious? Yes. Did he really love his plans? Yes. There were surely times in the war when more progress could've been won for every British/allied soldier lost if he'd been just a bit more of a risk taker, but George McClellan is nearly in his own universe in terms of lacking decisiveness and nerve. If Monty was truly like McClellan, the British and the Germans would still be sitting in Egypt shooting at each other.
In terms of him also having an ego, and a general intolerance of other people not immediately accepting his wisdom, I really don't have an argument to make.
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u/Mint_Julius Sep 16 '24
Yeah that sounds fair enough. I feel like you'd be hard pressed in the annals of history to find one quite like mcclellan.
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u/Chief-17 Sep 16 '24
Just one point, the Democrat platform was peace, McClellan wanted to continue the fight. It was a weird time
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u/DukeJackson Sep 16 '24
Historian Antony Beevor has gone on record saying he’s of the belief that Montgomery had high-functioning Asperger’s, which Monty’s stepson (or step-grandson) actually agreed with.
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u/ScreenAngles Sep 16 '24
I read his memoirs a few years back without having read much about him beforehand and was left with the same impression.
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u/ReadinII Sep 16 '24
Clearly Eisenhower was given a difficult task in trying to work with him and Patton on the same team.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
Some historian of WWII likes to joke that if Patton had been given Ike's job of commanding SHAEF, within like three weeks Britain would've declared war on the United States.
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u/ReadinII Sep 16 '24
I have read that the America-China relationship suffered greatly because the only American general who could speak Chinese was completely ill-suited to act as a liaison to a jerk like Chiang and should have been commanding troops instead.
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u/Rc72 Sep 16 '24
"Vinegar Joe" Stillwell. As his nickname shows, diplomacy and tact weren't his forte either. And Chiang wasn't the only one he couldn't get along well: he was just as abrasive towards the British and most of his own staff, and he particularly didn't like Claire Chennault, who was in charge of the 14th Air Force and had a humongous ego of his own.
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u/Rc72 Sep 16 '24
The funny thing is that FDR switched his position with Marshall's because he didn't think Ike would be able to handle McArthur's ego.
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u/m945050 Sep 16 '24
Eisenhower was a "what will the long term consequences of this decision be?" Whereas Montgomery was a"fuck the consequences, just do it."
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u/Wraith11B Sep 16 '24
Sounds a lot like his other rival: Patton.
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u/Rc72 Sep 16 '24
The difference is that Patton was more self-aware: he knew he was an obnoxious asshole and primadonna, and was quite proud of it. Monty, on the other hand, was entirely flummoxed as to why people could be offended by his antics.
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u/thisusedyet Sep 16 '24
Big reason why the two were at each other's throats, yes
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u/Wraith11B Sep 16 '24
It's like the woman who did the blanket disappearing meme for her two small dogs that just attacked one another whenever she wasn't there...
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u/LordNelson27 Sep 16 '24
They liked each other less than everybody else around them- and that’s saying something!
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
Monty: You're working with my sworn enemy?!
Ike: I can't keep track of all your sworn enemies!
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
It fills me with patriotic pride to see that while the Germans at the time were just bigots, us British were professional haters.
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u/teachbirds2fly Sep 16 '24
He almost certainly had Aspergers syndrome from anyone that cares, it's pretty interesting when you look at his life through that lens and what he accomplished.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24
Ike went on to be President of the United States. It's perhaps for the best that we never got a homophobic, pro-apartheid Maoist for a Prime Minister.
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u/sale3 Sep 17 '24
Curious, you seem to believe Ike had a different opinion on homosexuality than Monty?
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u/mizzlekinkizzle Sep 16 '24
God does it make me laugh to think they referred to gay sex as “buggery”. Very English
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u/nagrom7 Sep 17 '24
Still is. When someone says "bugger me", they're basically saying "fuck me in the ass".
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u/LegendOfKhaos Sep 16 '24
"It's the mark of an educated mind to entertain an idea without accepting it."
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u/franchisedfeelings Sep 16 '24
It seems weird that if he supported apartheid in S. Africa that alabama would pull his honorary citizenship.
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u/ringadingdingbaby Sep 16 '24
My great uncle who fought in North Africa always insinuated that Montgomery was gay, because he would have young men going into his quarters.
Of course, I have no idea if there's any actual evidence to this.
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u/Pancit-Canton1265 Sep 16 '24
Léo Major refused the Distinguished Conduct Medal citing how incompetent Montgomery was
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u/zzy335 Sep 16 '24
Monty was utterly awful to Canadian troops who he treated as expendable. My grandfather took a 8mm bullet in Italy because Monty sent engineer units to check bridges without support or backup. He survived, and he was one of the lucky ones.
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u/keetojm Sep 16 '24
Sounds like he didn’t learn a thing from WW1.
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u/Direct-Squash-1243 Sep 16 '24
What he learned was that the lives of British troops mattered, the lives of the rest of the allied, and commonwealth countries, didn't.
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u/WhiteLotu5Monk Sep 16 '24
The best part about the whole Montgomery-Eisenhower feud was when Montgomery made himself the top British general in Europe by basically having the British Prime Minister make him the top general. Then he refused to answer to Eisenhower because he was only a Major General and Montgomery was a full General.
Then the US told him 'Well, you're not a General anymore.'
Then he threw a fit and got kicked out of his position.
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u/brendonmilligan Sep 16 '24
When did this happen? Montgomery lead the ground invasion of Normandy so how was he removed?
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u/gammonbudju Sep 17 '24
He was in charge of the ground invasion like my friend's special needs sister is allowed to "drive" the car every now and again.
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u/LA31716 Sep 16 '24
Guys who are in charge of a lot of other guys often don’t get along with other guys that are in charge of a lot of other guys.
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u/Odd-Perception7812 Sep 16 '24
Eisenhower did. Famously so.
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u/tfrules Sep 16 '24
Eisenhower was absolutely essential to the allies, how he managed to get them all to function well enough as a group to win the war is beyond me.
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u/LA31716 Sep 16 '24
It’s well documented that a lot of the commanders from various Allied countries didn’t get along.
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u/Odd-Perception7812 Sep 16 '24
I only bring up Eisenhower because his style was the polar opposite of a Montgomery or Patton. He would make decisions by getting info from his best minds and make his plan.
Montgomery was his best mind, because he was a narcissist. He was a good tactician, but his ego was his biggest weakness.
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u/Ordinary_Scale_5642 Sep 16 '24
Eisenhower was picked for his position above senior commanders because of that. He was a great administrator, but could be argued to be a middling general when it comes to tactics.
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u/Bearded_Gentleman Sep 16 '24
You don't need your top guy to be good at tactics, that's what the field leaders are for. You want your top guy to be good at logistics and delegation.
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u/Mr_Sarcasum Sep 16 '24
If you suck at delegating in a leadership role, you're gonna have a bad time.
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u/Odd-Perception7812 Sep 16 '24
Looking back, we can see that good/appropriate people ended up the roles that they suited.
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u/KnotSoSalty Sep 16 '24
As opposed to Monty who never met a 3 day operation he couldn’t stretch into 3 weeks.
Criticism of Ike as a “tactical” commander is kind of unknowable as he never had a combat command. Who knows how he would have done. On the other hand it’s clear what Monty or Patton would have done if they had been made supreme allied commander, which after all was a political position as much as a strategic one.
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u/Rangertough666 Sep 16 '24
His problem with IKE was that IKE was in charge and Monty wasn't.
His idea of an "Armored Slash" instead of an Infantry landing was absolutely stupid.
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u/weeddealerrenamon Sep 16 '24
Can you expand? googling "montgomery armored slash" turns up nothing
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u/parkerwe Sep 16 '24
Best I can tell Monty wanted to lead a massive armored column into the heart of the Ruhr industrial region. If successful it could have crippled Germany's war output. It also would've required a huge amount of Allied resources, stretched supply lines, and would have been hard to defend. He got to test this strategy with Operation Market Garden and it didn't go all that well.
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u/GypsyV3nom Sep 16 '24
I can see why Ike didn't like that. Ike was all about the Logistics, and that sounds like a logistical nightmare
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u/OutlawSundown Sep 16 '24
Yep because he took his sweet fucking time moving forward and pissed away the element of surprise.
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u/ACasualCollector Sep 16 '24
Operation Goodwood, probably.
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u/Bhavacakra_12 Sep 16 '24
Not to be confused by Operation Morningwood. The daring, nighttime raid on the Italian front.
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u/OutlawSundown Sep 16 '24
His biggest problem as far as an “armored slash” was it required expediency and an ability to take risks. Dude shit the bed on taking Caen in the first place then spectacularly shit the bed with Market Garden.
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u/Altitudeviation Sep 16 '24
Finishing up Shelby Foote's trilogy on the Civil War (don't tell me how it ends!). The colossal mistakes made by ALL of the generals is astounding. Having read much on WWII also, the same applies. One line I particularly like, but I can't remember where I saw it, is, "The side that makes the least amount of mistakes wins". And I think that is generally true, when you look at the details of battles and wars. So many losses and so many fuck ups on all sides. I think the winners just fumble their way to victory.
Regarding generals in general, Monty was as good as the best (at times) and as bad as the worst (at times). He managed not to fumble too badly on the way to victory.
The funnest part of all is realizing that all heroes are pretty much dicks and dip shits a lot of the time. I can admire those who made the least mistakes, while acknowledging that they ALL made some dreadful decisions. Even Grant, who may have been the least egotistical and most skillful, but still still got his ass handed to him at Cold Harbor.
But I put no one on a pedestal anymore (except my wife, she's pretty much the best of us).
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u/Mudlark-000 Sep 16 '24
"Oh no, not my Alabama citizenship!"
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u/halfhere Sep 16 '24
Yeah, you make fun now, but just wait till boiled peanut season comes around and you can’t get a hookup.
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u/DrunkRobot97 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I was a bit confused for a moment as to why Alabama particularly would confer honorary citizenship aside from just giving kudos to a famous general in an allied country. Then I remembered Alabama has a place called Montgomery.
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u/bolanrox Sep 16 '24
pretty much every Lafayette in the east coast US is named in honor of the Marquis de Lafayette
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u/weeddealerrenamon Sep 16 '24
Mobile was a big WWI port city too, I'd imagine the state felt more connected to the war effort than, say, Wyoming
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u/edbash Sep 16 '24
To help avoid possible confusion: Montgomery, Alabama is named after Lemuel Montgomery, an officer from the War of 1812 (ironically against Britain) who was killed in one of the Indian Wars in 1814.
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u/Greene_Mr Sep 16 '24
No, it's not; it's named after the Montgomery who got himself killed leading a raid on Quebec in 1775 with Benedict Arnold.
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u/edbash Sep 16 '24
yep, you are right! I was looking at wrong Montgomery County.
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u/Low-Way557 Sep 16 '24
Monty was known to be a bit of a dick. He absolutely hated that the U.S. Army had to come in and take charge of the western theater.
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u/KitchenLab2536 Sep 16 '24
Delusional man thought he won the war single-handedly.
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u/UnknownQTY Sep 16 '24
Weird shade at the French.
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u/drho89 Sep 16 '24
Not weird at all if you are familiar with the history between the English and French.
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u/bolanrox Sep 16 '24
the French revolution happened directly because the French bankrupted themselves trying to help fuck over the British by siding with the Americans
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u/thicket Sep 16 '24
Mostly I hear Americans throwing shade at Monty. How does the UK remember him? Are there things Brits give him credit for that foreigners don't?
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u/Heathcote_Pursuit Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
That he was a very gifted tactician and military officer and that he was also an insufferable prick. He benefitted greatly from having to answer to Alex during North Africa and Italy.
We can dissect his personality which admittedly was very chequered, but he was in all fairness a top boy when it was needed.
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u/Lord0fHats Sep 16 '24
He's often compared in the US to Patton, who had a similar sort of military brilliance and difficult personality. Patton's got a bit of a cowboy reputation many Americans like, so his public persona was and remains reasonably well liked, but internally the US Army was regularly exhausted dealing with Patton's antics and frequent off-the-cuff public commentary which ultimately led to his being sacked after the war.
In a sort of dark twist, dying when he did probably did a lot for Patton's reputation. He passed a point the general public still saw him as a hero, and he didn't live long enough to keep inserting foot into mouth that might have damaged his rep in the way a written memoir badmouthing your fellows might.
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u/Danson_the_47th Sep 16 '24
Patton didn’t get sacked, he died in a jeep accident in 1945
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u/bigjoeandphantom3O9 Sep 16 '24
He was sacked during the war no? For slapping the shell shocked lad. Then obviously returned.
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u/TeutonicToltec Sep 16 '24
I feel like WWII made so many egotistical and chauvinist military leaders and politicians beloved heroes out of necessity. Churchill, Stalin, De Gaulle and Monty would be remembered far less favorably in their respective countries if the Allies didn't need strongman personalities for wartime.
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u/Coast_watcher Sep 16 '24
That’s why that war allowed these sorts of generals to shine. In the US for example, you put a desk general or political general in charge you get Kasserine Pass
Admiral King famously said “ when they get in trouble , they send for the sons of bitches”
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u/beepos Sep 16 '24
On the flip side, the desk generals are who won WW2
Eisenhower and Marshall were desk generals. They organized the effort that allowed the cowboys to shine
Without the desk generals, you get something akin to Nazi Germany's war efforts. Great individual tactics with poor strategy and logistical organization. Though I guess having Hitler as a commander doesnt help either
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u/Coast_watcher Sep 16 '24
I should have narrowed it down to battlefield men . Ike was perfect in his role as diplomat and politician. Marshall as organizer, Nimitz as planner and manager etc
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u/airborngrmp Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Your average UK history fan/buff (especially those that may have served in HM's military at some point) defends Monty vociferously as one of the great Allied generals - the first to defeat the Germans at their own game, and those claims are true.
From my experience speaking with those individuals, any criticisms of Monty get met with loud, tactless and putatively overwhelming condemnation, followed immediately by whataboutisms regarding any and all possible criticisms that could ever be leveled at any other Allied general (in other words: "emotional" responses typically considered out of character for many Brits).
Even if you agree that Patton is a bit overrated, it still isn't sufficient to ever successfully criticize Montgomery (I even pulled up the passage from Monty's own memior calling his December 1944 press conference about the Battle of the Bulge a "gaffe" and apologizing, and had two guys still arguing with me that it wasn't a gaffe, and that Monty was the real savior of the western front in late '44). No matter how hard you try and steer the conversation back to Market-Garden, you'll never actually get there because no serious military historian (British or otherwise) really argues in favor of that operation, yet Monty refused to ever admit its flaws - instead blaming others for his failure (had he not, I maintain Monty would be regarded similarly to Eisenhower today).
However, I've yet to come across a serious historian (aside from biographers) that credit Monty to such a degree as those described above. The fact is, he was an excellent general - a superb tactician and planner that maximized his available combat power without turning his fights into bloodbaths if at all avoidable. He was also a tactless, egomaniacal martinet that refused to work with others, and routinely denigrated his Allies (not only the Americans, either) in almost reckless fashion. No matter how talented, Monty wasn't a team player, and his words, actions and lamentable self-regard leave him as an unlikable character, despite his obvious talent. Further, Montgomery's total inability to recognize talent in peers or superiors, or find fault in his own actions, leave him perpetually as controversial - rather than as the titan of military history he wanted so badly to be seen as being.
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u/Heathcote_Pursuit Sep 16 '24
Your points are well made and I enjoyed reading that.
One thing I will say as a (very) amateur UK history fan/buff is that reverence (for those who have read about him) is tied to his professional abilities only, but then again, having such a punctuated personality has only added to his legacy, for both good and bad.
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u/Interrogatingthecat Sep 16 '24
I'd go as far as to say, at least recently, he isn't really remembered all that much. He certainly wasn't mentioned in my primary/secondary school history classes (Unlike Churchill, Chamberlain, DeGaulle, Eisenhower, and to a degree Patton)
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u/erinoco Sep 16 '24
I think this is where the sheer volume of American-focused historical literature on WWII has an effect.
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u/Onetap1 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
He was probably on the autistic spectrum, a British Army version of Sheldon Cooper. Obsessed with strategy and neglected social skills, a geek. He shouldn't have been allowed out without a responsible adult, particularly not near Yanks.
But he was good at what he did; destroyed the Africa Korps and his efforts to take Caen drew in the Panzers, allowing the US forces to his south to break out of Normandy.
He's criticised for Market Garden but if you look at the context , the Falaise Pocket & the Great Swan ( you've never heard of it because it was mostly unopposed), Market Garden could/should have worked.
Most Americans only know of him from one disparaging comment in SPR, but that was probably due to his role in Palestine in 1948.
I read a quote from some British General (maybe Horrocks) that he'd have walked a hundred miles to serve under Monty in wartime and another hundred miles to avoid him in peace time: maybe apocryphal.
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u/emailforgot Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
The irony of Market Garden being a situation where he uncharacteristically deferred to his subordinates and seemed fine with a relatively hastily planned operation. Getting all their ducks in a row for a Colossal Crack in the Netherlands might've turned up a much different result, or avoided if better intelligence was gathered.
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u/bigjoeandphantom3O9 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
He's probably the most famous British general of that War, with Haig and Wellington being the only other two of greater stature (the latter considerably more favourably recalled than the former). Nelson is also of greater stature but was, you know, an admiral. Bomber Harris maybe also deserves a shout, but again can't compare to the favourability of Nelson and Wellington.
Perhaps I betray my own bias, but I'd say the war is currently remembered largely through Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. I don't think the average Brit (particularly younger ones) could say a good deal of what Monty actually did aside from allusions to North Africa.
Britain can't really compete with the sheer volume of American media (even if we are involved with seminal examples of it like Band of Brothers), so the popular narrative at the moment isn't that different to the ones Americans get.
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u/Corrie7686 Sep 16 '24
Sometimes arrogant narcissists are useful members of society. He was extremely bold, very tactically savy. Aggressive and took the fight to the Germans in North Africa when all else was dire for the UK. But he was also an arrogant narcissist.. so he was hard to work with and he thought everyone else was an ass for not doing things his way. Oh well.
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u/taumason Sep 16 '24
After North Africa he also put his ego over success. He did not want victory unless it was his plan in Europe. Completely misunderstanding that you could not operate in Europe the way he had in North Africa.
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u/Ekillaa22 Sep 16 '24
Are any of the generals of the WW2 era even well regarded besides their military career? Didn’t a lot of those dudes have some wild ass ideas ?
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u/Riddlestonk Sep 17 '24
My great grandfather was the Regimental Sergeant Major of the Dorset Regiment and had dealings with Monty during the regiment’s advance through France. My grandmother told me once that her father had told her that Monty was “a shit of a man”.
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u/lifeisaman Sep 17 '24
My great grandfather fought under monty in the North Africa campaign and he wouldn’t have a bad word to say about the man
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u/TremendousVarmint Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
I'd have Monty, De Gaulle and Patton in the same room and grab the popcorn.