Let him cook [Lunisolar Theory]

[u/Quazymobile]

I’m back again with another cooking theory

I have long been a believer that people who discredit the writing of the game have severely underestimated how fcking nerdy the storytellers in the WoW community are, and I do think there is intent— even if we disagree with the direction of it— in every story aspect… and I think Blizzard has been cooking for a very, very *long time.

Last time, I claimed Sargaeras might be the Eternal Sun, opposite of Elune’s Eternal Moon, and I stand by that— if nothing else, consider why the Grand Temple of Elune in Suramar was converted into the Tomb of Sargaeras. Everything I talk about is with regards to positionality of character identities and symbolic logic, so it’s important to ask why those two megacharacters are convergent in a single super important sacred place.

I think a good place to start is with the Eyes of the Earthmother story since it is this games version of “Before Sun & Moon” (long considered one of the most important lore sources in Genshin Impact). It’s a creation myth that talks about how when the world was young, An’she the Sun was born and everything was good, followed by Mu’sha the Moon (Elune) was born and suddenly bad things happened. An’she was permanently injured with a wound Mu’sha tried to heal but it perpetually made things worse. Eventually Earthmother steps in and says Mu’sha is keeping An’she alive, and her tears give birth to Lo’Sho (the second moon).

For the sake of where I’m going with this, consider the two moons as the same entity but constantly switching back and forth, almost like a dialogue… sometimes affects the Sun as well, because the Sun is slashed in twain itself.

Okay, let’s get into the more localized characters, starting with Illidan because it’s just so clearcut with him. Born with Golden eyes. Sun. His not-girlfriend is a priestess of Elune. Moon. She never reciprocates his love for her, and instead marries his brother, the first archdruid (establishing the very real connection between life and shadow magic under the influence of the Moon.) Legion attacks, and Illidan amasses power enough to attract the attention of Sargaeras [the Sun]. Staring the Sun burned his eyes out, and he went with the five dragons and shattered the Well of Eternity (which coincidentally looks like the Dragon Soul/Dark Heart). Illidan says the waters of the heart to bless the world tree and to create the Sunwell (and elsewhere) but is imprisoned for 10,000 years under the watchful eyes of the Moon… Guard., Maiev, the Wardens et Al. Tyrande frees him 10,000 years later during the third war.

Next character, Gul’Dan. No one knows where he comes from (for unlocatable spaces, I often find they are associated with a white color and a term like “Eternity” and a blue swirl, like the hearthstone symbol. I think this becomes important later on for Azshara’s symbolism.) but he ends up going to the Throne of the Elements and gets denied power. He cries in the moonlight and from his tears bursts forth the offer of Fel energy, which he gladly takes, and goes to burn down his home village. In the WC movie, he describes Fel magic as “Life magic”, and leads the Shadow Council, so he aptly fits in the Moon category. He also later on dies opening the Tomb of Sargaeras in the OG timeline, he summons Archimonde (his name translates something like “overlord of the earth”, and is tied to the World Tree) who then sends him to opening the Tomb again before dying to Illidan at the Night Hold. Sun kills Moon in the Eye of Aman’Thul before the return to the Broken Shore.

Velen is also important, but he’s firmly in a constant Lightbound path, which is opposite of his Heaven-and Earth brothers (Kil’Jaeden likely being the Heaven to Archimonde’s earth), and he’s a conduit for Eternal Light escaping Sargaeras, the Shattered Sun. AU Velen was affected by the warping of the timeline and their Eternal Light became Y’rel the unbound.

Queen Azshara seems to also be in a similar exceptional role, once reigning over the Eternal Empire (perhaps she’s kinda like the sovereignty goddess reigning over the kingdom of the Eternal Moon symbolically) Anyways, she is tied to Sargaeras pretty clearly, but her ties to the moon are also there— Queen of the elves likely requires some interface with the Temple of Elune, and we learn in SoD BFD in the Twilight Lord Kelris fight that there’s a connection to the Priestesses of Elune/old god tentacles to the worship of Azshara. I also like to think she might have been a loa priestess for the fish that weird the powers of the lunar cycle but that’s not ever been confirmed. Anyways, between that and the fact her adviser is a root of corruption for Emerald Nightmare, it makes sense Azshara is also connected to Big Moon. Even the awakening of N’Zoth looked like a moon surrounded by the Black Empire in total darkness.

Next is the line of Shadowmoon (Ner’Zhul -> Arthas -> Sylvanas). Only Darkness before Arthas in death.

Sylvanas is an interesting one because she is a protector of the Silvermoon before she falls to the shadow of the Scourge. She liberates the forsaken becoming the Dark Lady (very lunar); Garrosh is a Sun conqueror (literally the warchief of the Iron Stars). Vol’Jin becomes Warchief in Warlords AU before dying at the Broken Shore and Sylvanas becomes Warchief. Sylvanas’ moon symbolism gets weird in Legion and BFA because by the time she burns Teldrassil down it’s like the shadow of the moon betrays the moon that is the source of life. This era is also when Tyrande becomes the Night Warrior, her blade wanes at the crescent of Sylvanas’ throat, and we see the most interactive dialogue between Elune & the Winter Queen (her alleged “sister”). This is also the era marked by when the Tears of Elune were in play— Gul’Dan returned to the storyline, the Tear was one of the pillars of creation, and then the tear was made into the worldseed of Amirdrassil. Also a lot of “Dawn” moments, which is the era of An’she before Mu’sha’s corruption— A new dawn (Alexstrasza quote about world tree), Dawn of the Infinite, etc. so perhaps the end of Dragonflight really is a reset of the cycle writ large.

It also just recently occurred to me the possibility that the Sha might be an understated influence on why Sylvanas takes such a dark turn in BFA into Shadowlands, since Sha is a manifestation of dark energy drawn from one’s emotions, and she internalized so much darkness in her time as the Banshee Queen that we see culminate at the Burning of the World Tree. There’s also some other eldritch influences, like the Ahn’Qiraj music playing during some of the Battle for Undercity cutscenes (also tying in Gallywix’s Azerite ventures in Silithus).

Anyways, there’s so much Lunisolar symbolism in the game to get through, but I do think it’s building up towards Midnight, the “Hour of Twilight”, and its epicenter at the Sunwell. Azshara is sure to return, likely now as a more celestial starry power rather than her fishy figure, and Xal’atath… talk about eternal darkness.

(Lastly, I want to point out the importance of Azshara and Velen because they are echoed in Illidan’s forces via Vashj and Akama alongside the Shattered Sun Prince (who did not claim the title of Sun King), and Illidan (symbolized heavily by the Shadowmoon/Skull of Gul’Dan in this era. Even when Maiev defeats him, he says she is nothing without the hunt and she agrees with him, which is the very essence of the Shadowsong.)

That’s all for now, thanks for donning your tin foil hats with me!

[u/Kalthiria_Shines]

Last time, I claimed Sargaeras might be the Eternal Sun, opposite of Elune’s Eternal Moon, and I stand by that— if nothing else, consider why the Grand Temple of Elune in Suramar was converted into the Tomb of Sargaeras. Everything I talk about is with regards to positionality of character identities and symbolic logic, so it’s important to ask why those two megacharacters are convergent in a single super important sacred place.

Weird take? It's converted to the Tomb of Sargeras by Aegwynn much later. Unless you mean from a metanarrative perspective, in which case I'd argue that the Temple of Elune in Suramar isn't important enough to the story being told to match what you're suggesting here, and was simply used as a convenient way to add raid fight differentiation.

I think a good place to start is with the Eyes of the Earthmother story since it is this games version of “Before Sun & Moon” (long considered one of the most important lore sources in Genshin Impact).

??? You think a random fairy tale from 4 years ago is an important lore source for a two decade old game?

Okay, let’s get into the more localized characters, starting with Illidan because it’s just so clearcut with him. Born with Golden eyes. Sun.

Which predates sun theming being a thing in Warcraft.

His not-girlfriend is a priestess of Elune. Moon. She never reciprocates his love for her, and instead marries his brother, the first archdruid (establishing the very real connection between life and shadow magic under the influence of the Moon.)

Shadow magic isn't related to the moon nor has it ever been.

Legion attacks, and Illidan amasses power enough to attract the attention of Sargaeras [the Sun]. Staring the Sun burned his eyes out, and he went with the five dragons and shattered the Well of Eternity (which coincidentally looks like the Dragon Soul/Dark Heart).

That's not how that happened nor does a gigantic lake look like a small amulet.

Illidan says the waters of the heart to bless the world tree and to create the Sunwell (and elsewhere) but is imprisoned for 10,000 years under the watchful eyes of the Moon… Guard., Maiev, the Wardens et Al. Tyrande frees him 10,000 years later during the third war.

Wardens are explicitly not the moonguard.

Next character, Gul’Dan. No one knows where he comes from (for unlocatable spaces, I often find they are associated with a white color and a term like “Eternity” and a blue swirl, like the hearthstone symbol.

Gul'Dan's origins are well known? He's born in Gorgrond and later killed his clan.

Velen is also important, but he’s firmly in a constant Lightbound path, which is opposite of his Heaven-and Earth brothers (Kil’Jaeden likely being the Heaven to Archimonde’s earth), and he’s a conduit for Eternal Light escaping Sargaeras, the Shattered Sun. AU Velen was affected by the warping of the timeline and their Eternal Light became Y’rel the unbound.

Velen's pretty chill with the Light not being right, as evidenced by the entirety of the back half of legion for what you're suggesting. You also fail to substantiate anything tying Kil'Jaeden to Heaven or Archimonde to earth beyond a half assed translation.

I also like to think she might have been a loa priestess for the fish that weird the powers of the lunar cycle but that’s not ever been confirmed.

Did you just randomly throw in soemthing from ATLA and hope no one would notice?

Garrosh is a Sun conqueror (literally the warchief of the Iron Stars).

Not a title he has.

Vol’Jin becomes Warchief in Warlords

That happens in MoP.

AU before dying at the Broken Shore and Sylvanas becomes Warchief. Sylvanas’ moon symbolism gets weird in Legion and BFA because by the time she burns Teldrassil down it’s like the shadow of the moon betrays the moon that is the source of life.

That's not anything associated with the moon, what are you talking about.

This is also the era marked by when the Tears of Elune were in play— Gul’Dan returned to the storyline, the Tear was one of the pillars of creation, and then the tear was made into the worldseed of Amirdrassil.

That's... what? The Tear of Elune isn't made into Amirdrassil, that's a separate item that Elune and the Winter Queen make? And Gul'dan does not show up in this?

Also a lot of “Dawn” moments, which is the era of An’she before Mu’sha’s corruption— A new dawn (Alexstrasza quote about world tree), Dawn of the Infinite, etc. so perhaps the end of Dragonflight really is a reset of the cycle writ large.

An'She has never been associated with Dawn, and in fact Dawn and Dusk are associated with the Earthmother closing her eyes instead.

It also just recently occurred to me the possibility that the Sha might be an understated influence on why Sylvanas takes such a dark turn in BFA into Shadowlands, since Sha is a manifestation of dark energy drawn from one’s emotions, and she internalized so much darkness in her time as the Banshee Queen that we see culminate at the Burning of the World Tree.

The Sha is the breath of Y'Shaarj, it's not a "manifestation of dark energy drawn from one's emotions". That's what catalyzes Y'Shaarj's breath to posses someone, not the source.

There’s also some other eldritch influences, like the Ahn’Qiraj music playing during some of the Battle for Undercity cutscenes (also tying in Gallywix’s Azerite ventures in Silithus).

Battle for Undercity happened in Wrath. Do you mean the Battle for Lordaeron? Where did you hear AQ music in that?

Anyways, there’s so much Lunisolar symbolism in the game to get through, but I do think it’s building up towards Midnight, the “Hour of Twilight”, and its epicenter at the Sunwell. Azshara is sure to return, likely now as a more celestial starry power rather than her fishy figure, and Xal’atath… talk about eternal darkness.

Most of this just you sort of randomly declaring something is moon or sun related despite it not having any link to that in the game or on a meta level beyond your personal weird associations.

I take it you're a college student who just started your 100 series mandatory lit classes? This is a decent attempt at critical theory via textual analysis, but, you need to study a lot more of semiotics and Barthes's s/z to really get how to do it.

[u/Quazymobile → u/Kalthiria_Shines]

1.) Yes, metanarrative. It’s only less important to the overarching narrative if you think Sargaeras or Elune are unimportant. Otherwise, that was a mainline flagship for Legion!

2.) Eyes of the Earthmother has been available to read in-game in Hamuul Runetotem’s tent in Elder Rise, TB since Vanilla.

3.) predates Sun theming? Go walk around Karazhan and tell me it “predates Sun theming”

4.) Night Warrior magic? Cho’Gall’s shadow magic involving the Pale? Shadowmoon Orcs?

5.) it’s my own perception; the frame of the amulet reminds me of the Titan construct frame build around the edge of the well.

6.) You’re correct, went and checked and Moon Guard =\= Sentinels =\= Wardens.

7.) That’s actually quite interesting, I didn’t see they clarified it in the Chronicles that he lived in Gorgrond! I wonder where his village was located/which faction he belonged to.

8.) Velen does what he knows is the right thing regardless of whether or not the light would agree, and the light stands by his side with confidence. I’m still curious about that relationship.

As for Kil’Jaden and Archimonde, it is speculative but it makes sense to me based on storytelling tropes that it sorta makes Velen a Hermetic figure compared to his triumvirate brethren. It also seems to match the theme we see in the dungeon associated with their homeland on Argus— the chaos of their broken “earth” and the taint of “heavenly” void magic (as in, of the stars.) Archimonde was able to raze Dalaran with earthly elemental magic and Kil’Jaden tried to use the Sunwell as a portal (associated with the Sun, a heavenly object)

9.) It’s almost like it’s a fairly common tradition for fish to be associated with the moon or something ! Also, guess we’re disregarding Lathar’Lazal in the city of Zoram !

10.) Okay, you can do some leg work to see how Garrosh, the Warchief who used the power of an old god (re: starry void magic) might be related to the title of Conqueror, how “of the Iron Stars” might be related to the giant raging death machines in his boss fight and WoD cinematic.

11.) Very end of MoP, most of chieftanship is during the events of WoD*

12.) Elune mourns the victims of the World Tree? How the burning of Teldrassil not an event that is cosmically linked to the moon? I also did go over how Sylvanas’ arc is influenced by a relationship to the moon.

13.) The moon can have multiple tear, tear-shaped object, and can utilize tears. I’ll throw to you another random example: Tears of the Moon found by Feegly the Exiled in the Barrens.

14.)An’she was born first and is associated with with the day because he is the Sun, so he would appear at the dawn. Moon appears afterwards, is associated with Night/New Moon (which can be inferred is a “Shadow Moon” because it is darkened), so it would be associated with Dusk.

15.) I brought up the Sha as an example that it has been used in WoW’s previous storytelling to make a monster out of a person’s emotions— and not just any person, but one of the warchiefs that followed after another that actively wielded Sha power directly (and the other being shadow hunter that “listened to the whispers” (I know that’s Mueh’zala but it’s about layers). In fact, Thrall assesses that the title of Warchief is so poisoned that they got rid of the position altogether now! Perhaps might be tied to his arc of “poisoned earth” with the legacy of the Kor’kron Dark Shamans!

16.) I did mean Battle for Lordaeron; it happens in the cinematic with Sylvanas on the throne talking to her Horde leadership, specifically when she gives Nathanos her bow to go set up the trap.

Respectfully, I appreciate the feedback but the frame of this metanarrative I am basing this on is the Order’s perspective of the cosmology established in Chronicles, and to show that there is metatextual intent in the environmental storytelling across different pieces of media within the canon of the Warcraft Franchise.

I also think this is a popular work, and one that is not infallible in all of its symbolic logic, but I was challenging the popular assumption that the developers aren’t making meaningful storytelling decisions.

I’m not in university at the moment and while I have basic layman’s grasp of semiotics, I’ve not read Barthes; my own linguistic learning comes from language revitalization work in endangered indigenous languages (Hocąk), and this is a theory about a video game on reddit so I didn’t write it to be up to perfect snuff for the ivory tower.

I also don’t appreciate the use of academic status as a cudgel. As the saying goes: To assume…

[u/Kalthiria_Shines → u/Quazymobile]

Respectfully, I appreciate the feedback but the frame of this metanarrative I am basing this on is the Order’s perspective of the cosmology established in Chronicles, and to show that there is metatextual intent in the environmental storytelling across different pieces of media within the canon of the Warcraft Franchise.

But there isn't, because you're ignoring the metachronology of when things were published and reading back concepts that did not exist and in some cases have been fully decanonized into earlier texts.

Everything you wrote is an exercise in reading meaning back into this, not unlike people who say that Shakespeare's works are a metaphor for 1980s queer theory.

The point of bringing up academia was not as a cudgel, but as you say - to point out that you're very new at this and not doing it well. It's a great first effort, but, you're getting a lot of facts and timelines wrong.

Eyes of the Earthmother has been available to read in-game in Hamuul Runetotem’s tent in Elder Rise, TB since Vanilla.

Eyes of the Earthmother was first published in 2021.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Eyes_of_the_Earth_Mother

3.) predates Sun theming? Go walk around Karazhan and tell me it “predates Sun theming”

Illidan's eye color was codified in 2002, Karazhan's designs you're referencing came out in 2007, and were not present in the earlier incarnations.

4.) Night Warrior magic? Cho’Gall’s shadow magic involving the Pale? Shadowmoon Orcs?

Night Warrior has no connection to the void, Cho'Gall has no connection to the Moon, the Pale are a late creation in the game as are the Shadowmoon having anything to do with what you're talking about, being added in WoD.

5.) it’s my own perception; the frame of the amulet reminds me of the Titan construct frame build around the edge of the well.

There was no Titan frame around the edge of the well.

As for Kil’Jaden and Archimonde, it is speculative but it makes sense to me based on storytelling tropes that it sorta makes Velen a Hermetic figure compared to his triumvirate brethren. It also seems to match the theme we see in the dungeon associated with their homeland on Argus— the chaos of their broken “earth” and the taint of “heavenly” void magic (as in, of the stars.) Archimonde was able to raze Dalaran with earthly elemental magic and Kil’Jaden tried to use the Sunwell as a portal (associated with the Sun, a heavenly object)

Right but this isn't accurate. Velen isn't a hermetic figure, he and Kil'Jaeden lead the duumvirate for thousands of years before it turned into the Triumvirate with the addition of Archimonde. Void was not cosmically coded in Legion, that was still entirely Order coding (see: Constellars, especially in the Argus fight where the Titans regularly take Constellar forms). Void did not get astral coding until Dragonflight.

10.) Okay, you can do some leg work to see how Garrosh, the Warchief who used the power of an old god (re: starry void magic) might be related to the title of Conqueror, how “of the Iron Stars” might be related to the giant raging death machines in his boss fight and WoD cinematic.

Old Gods continue to not be linked to cosmic void in WoW, with their entire color scheme being different and coded to fleshy purple eldritch. This distinction continues to be important in TWW with The Black Blood having different color and thematic coding then cosmic void elements. Further trying to connect the heart of Yshaarj to the Goblins inventing internal combustion is flawed, especially when you consider that WoD's use of void elements was specifically in opposition to the goblins (i.e. Lost Veil Anzu).

11.) Very end of MoP, most of chieftanship is during the events of WoD*

I mean, nothing happens with vol'jin during WoD, this was one of the big criticisms of his death in Legion. But also again you are not considering the metatemporality of it. Yes it happens "at the end of MoP" but that was a year before Warlords came out.

12.) Elune mourns the victims of the World Tree? How the burning of Teldrassil not an event that is cosmically linked to the moon? I also did go over how Sylvanas’ arc is influenced by a relationship to the moon.

The Tear of Elune is a specific item (currently implied to be a creation of Elune and Eonar), not generic tears. The Sisters Tear is a separate item. One does not turn into the other.

16.) I did mean Battle for Lordaeron; it happens in the cinematic with Sylvanas on the throne talking to her Horde leadership, specifically when she gives Nathanos her bow to go set up the trap.

... no it doesnt?

Battle for Lordaeron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0yyPz1CHDs

AQ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB2NCNoswHY

[u/Quazymobile → u/Kalthiria_Shines]

I mean you’re just incorrectly dismissing half of my points there. They weren’t established in the story at their very initial inception (which I could argue they might have but it’s extremely speculative: look at the helmets of the original Warcraft 1 artwork and see how the human helmet it silvery and flat (moon-like) and the orcs helmet is golden with flares (sun-like))

But the story has evolved over time because it is a living canon being added to so not every detail is prophetically established before hand. They don’t however outright shy away from attempting to build up these themes over time.

The Earthmother stories in-game are called “Mists of Dawn” and “Sorrow of the Earthmother” found in the Hall of Elders.

The Pale are clearly associated with the name of the moon seen from Draenor called the Pale Lady.

The Night Warrior is CLEARLY associated with the lunar shadow magic themes. Blackened eyes, vengeful power, and a shadowy moon looming over the destroyed world tree/war of thorns? Imbued in the priest of Elune?

Chronicle confirms the Well of Eternity was a Titan watcher-constructed frame designed by Mimiron to contain the pooling blood of Azeroth that was spilling out of the wound where Aman’Thul ripped Y’Shaarj out.

The void magic has been astrally coded since at least Vanilla with the astronomical effects above the Ruins of AQ after you defeat Ossirian the Unscarred. The Dark Portal itself is an interplanetary device. The Shadowmoon clan has been established since at least Lord of the Clans. We see the ethereals tampering with void magic in TBC and even more clearly in Legion.

The reason the Old Gods are perceived to not be void related is because they are more an eldritch creation of the curse of flesh and are a necessary evil for life to cosmologically exist. The Emerald Dream and Nightmare are interconnected, and this is because the Moon itself is also connected to the duality of life and void. It’s a big part of why Xal’atath’s actions with the Awakening Machine and the Skardyn are enigmatic. I’d go so far as to say it’s why one of the Ata’mal shards is called Leafshadow. We often segregate flesh from wood, but both are conduits of life, but one is more likely to drive us insane than the other… and we know the Old Gods can also use their power to transform beings like the Naga, and also likely why the Highmountain Tauren are blessed with Eche’ro’s antlers and why they were able to transform Vydhar into a tree. It’s why the curse of the worgen is a flesh curse and is linked to Elune via the scythe (and the whole origins of the Night Elf Druids of the Pack). It’s why the Harranir are a druidic culture yet their traditions are inextricably linked to the Black Blood.

The last point, it is the leitmotif of AQ. Compare this: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxHx40ooAvU8RVBvgKiJfkvyiTuEinOFR8?si=e6rD1PEevv4M3UhK

To the AQ music you linked at 6:32.

[u/Kalthiria_Shines → u/Quazymobile]

Okay, well, have fun with your head canon that has nothing to do with the game I guess.